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what was 'the New Skate' ?



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 15th 03, 08:51 PM
Ken Roberts
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Default what was 'the New Skate' ?

I gained a lot from "the New Skate" ideas when I was first learning to
skate, both from a camp and coaching on rollerskis and from Pete
Vordenberg's articles in The Master Skier magazine (www.masterskier.com).
Now three years later I'm saying these ideas taught with rigor by different
American instructors I've met in different regions, and I see former
opponent Borowski joining forces with Vordenberg in new magazine articles.

Maybe now it's becoming "the Mainstream Skate". I kept hoping the ideas
will get published in a book that everyone can read and discuss, but I still
haven't see it yet. There are two more recent Vordenberg skate technique
articles which have now been put up on the Master Skier website -- check
those out, and a subscription to Master Skier should help keep up with
future American technique developments.

But I had to go back to those first two remarkable Vordenberg articles in
2000-2001 to see what I was reacting to back then. Below is my attempt to
summarize the concepts -- I'll be grateful for corrections:

Ken
_____________________________________
The New Skate
-- ideas from Vordenberg's 2000-2001 articles

(A) Legs -- use both of them equally
(1) No more weak skate-push on one side.
(2) Quiet Upper Body is necessary to enable this.
(3) training with no poles is a great way to learn it.

(B) Body position -- "gunslinger"
(1) ankles bent strongly forward, so knees are above toes.
(2) hips forward, above the heels.
(3) hips square to the skier's overall forward motion,
not turning to follow the glide of each ski.
(5) pelvis tilted forward and up (? but for months I understood this
exactly the opposite from what was intended ?)

(C) Quiet Upper Body
(1) shoulders square to the skier's overall forward motion,
and exactly aligned with the line of the two hips.
(2) No dipping or twisting or rotating -- never ever.
(3) quiet is necessary to enable most effective leg push
(4) dipping, swinging, twisting the upper body wastes energy.

(D) Continuous application of force with good turnover
(1) in order to maintain momentum
(2) No passive-glide rest phase: that just slows you down
(3) higher turnover frequency is usually better
(4) unnecessary upper body motion wastes time + hinders turnover

(E) the Old skate -- what was wrong:
(1) weak leg-push on one side: caused loss of momentum.
(2) Nose-Knees-Toes focus: wasted energy side-to-side and reduced tempo
frequency.
(3) Length-of-Glide focus: reduced tempo frequency.

The original "New Skate" articles:
-- The New Skate, by Pete Vordenberg. The Master Skier Magazine, Pre-Season
2000-2001.
-- The New Skate Part 2, by Pete Vordenberg. The Master Skier Magazine,
Mid-Season 2000-2001.
For newer articles and ideas, see
-- www.masterskier.com
-- www.skipost.com



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  #2  
Old December 15th 03, 09:27 PM
Jeff Potter
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Default what was 'the New Skate' ?

Ken Roberts wrote:

[ ] and I see former
opponent Borowski joining forces with Vordenberg in new magazine articles.


It looks like Lee created a truce by saying that aspects of the old
'ride'n'glide' work better for weaker citizen skiers and that we mortals can't
use all the benefits of the elite new skate. In other words, Lee says he agrees
with Pete but only for elite skiers and that weaker skiers will bail out more
often into the old ride'n'glide. ??

[ ] I kept hoping the ideas
will get published in a book that everyone can read and discuss, but I still
haven't see it yet.


Is there a hot book out there? I have the oddly-shaped Ski Skating that seems
pretty good. Is it Old or New Skate? : )

[ ]
_____________________________________
The New Skate
-- ideas from Vordenberg's 2000-2001 articles

(A) Legs -- use both of them equally


Set them down in a 'ready to power' position, not too far under body.

Feet seem to have a smooth, continuous, 'swimming' style. Dynamic--no harsh
shove but also less rest-spots.

Heel-Power! Kick the powering foot down and FORWARD to keep heel down as long
as possible when powering. --As per speedskating.

(C) Quiet Upper Body


Hands/arms work more in a 'flicky' way---less huge commitment and total
followthru. Max the sweetspot and bail on the rest.

[ ]
(2) No dipping or twisting or rotating -- never ever.


I recall Lee saying that weaker skiers will twist as well as glide more. Also
that personal style brings aspects of Old Skate into play even with WC skiers.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself culture...
...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
...rare books on ski, bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller
about smalltown smuggling ... radical novels coming up!
...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
plus national travel forums! HOLY SMOKES! 800-763-6923


  #3  
Old December 15th 03, 10:15 PM
Hank Garretson
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Default what was 'the New Skate' ?

New Skate, Spew Skate! As our masters coach told us a week ago, there is
really nothing new in the new skate. The best skiers have been doing it
for years, long before "New Skate" was coined. Coach was skiing and
teaching new skate long before it was "New."

I'm inclined to reject the contention that the best ski the new skate
because they are stronger than the rest of us. The best ski the way they
do because it is the fastest, most efficient. It would be the fastest,
most efficient for the rest of us if we could just break out of our
ingrained muscle-memory way of skating. If we could just train ourselves,
our muscle memory to ski the "new" way, we would ski the same speed with
less effort or faster with the same effort.

Ski Exuberantly,

Hank

Mammoth Lakes, Calif.








  #4  
Old December 15th 03, 11:19 PM
Ken Roberts
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Default what was 'the New Skate' ?

So point me at one English-language book from 1988 to 2002 that taught more
than 25% of the New Skate ideas I listed.

Hank Garretson wrote
New Skate, Spew Skate! As our masters coach told
us a week ago, there is really nothing new in the new skate.
. . . Coach was skiing and teaching new skate long before it was "New."


Lucky for you, living in a special place and finding the right coach who saw
it all along.

But your coach didn't help _me_ any -- she or he just left me there to stare
at those Team Birkie videos.

Seems to me Vordenberg deserves credit for writing it down -- and
distributing it in a way that could get to me in my place -- and in a style
where it caught my attention.

There may have been others who knew it better or knew it sooner, but they
didn't put in that special hard work of writing for publication.

Ken


  #5  
Old December 16th 03, 12:25 AM
Hank Garretson
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Default what was 'the New Skate' ?

At 03:33 PM 15 12 03 Monday, Ken wrote:

Seems to me Vordenberg deserves credit for writing it down -- and
distributing it in a way that could get to me in my place -- and in a style
where it caught my attention.

There may have been others who knew it better or knew it sooner, but they
didn't put in that special hard work of writing for publication.


Absolutely! Pete has done and continues to do a lot for skiing. More
power to him.

Ski Exuberantly,

Hank

Mammoth Lakes, Calif.








  #6  
Old December 16th 03, 07:37 AM
Janne G
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Default what was 'the New Skate' ?

Ken Roberts wrote:

I gained a lot from "the New Skate" ideas when I was first learning to
skate, both from a camp and coaching on rollerskis and from Pete
Vordenberg's articles in The Master Skier magazine (www.masterskier.com).
Now three years later I'm saying these ideas taught with rigor by different
American instructors I've met in different regions, and I see former
opponent Borowski joining forces with Vordenberg in new magazine articles.


The only thing new in skating over the years that i have seen is the development
of (V2, 3 gear, double dance) skating tech to be the dominant tech and by that
forcing the upper body to be more stable (quiet?) to do this high tempo arm
swing with the poles. This stable upper body posture also spills over to other
techs like classic kick pole just because of the development of more muscles
in this area and it would be a waste to not use it when you got it.

I don't think that the tempo has gone up as much as some of us think, we are
just fooled by the high tempo armswing due to the larger use of V2 nowdays.
Take look at videos from older races and compare it to now, i can't se any real
diff in tempo on racers that are of the same size, and this is important,
you can't compare athletes of diffrent size because they move diffrent just
because of theire size and that's not what we are discussing here.


--

Forward in all directions

Janne G
  #7  
Old December 16th 03, 04:01 PM
Ken Roberts
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Default what was 'the New Skate' ?

I guess it can be hard for skiers outside North America to see why there was
any need for a "new skate".

Janne G wrote
The only thing new in skating over the years that i have seen
is the development of (V2, 3 gear, double dance) skating tech
to be the dominant tech


I notice you avoid mentioning any significant change in V1 (offset, paddle
dance).

Here's my personal attempt to figure out the American history by looking at
old books:

Audun Endestad skated on the U.S. National ski team, and then teamed with
John Teaford in 1987 to write a book called "Skating for Cross-Country
Skiers". A sound treatment of ski skating technique for racers, with lots
of good tips that are still helpful today. But in the 1990's this book was
forgotten, and American writing about ski skating slid back into shallow
beginner books or deeper attempts which mixed some good ideas with lots of
misleading stuff. Though from what I'm hearing in this discussion group,
some coaches kept the sound knowledge alive (including Endestad himself).

By the time I started to learn to skate in 2000, there was lots of
misinformation and confusion in America about skating technique -- at least
in the books and videos available in normal distribution. (No one told me
about Audun Endestad's out-of-print book until three years later -- Thanks
to Serge!)

So somebody had to present the basics again in a fresh way that could get
people's attention. So I don't begrudge Vordenberg calling it "the New
Skate" -- because he found a way to get it _me_ in a way that did feel new,
compared to everything else I could find.

I'm sure lots of folks in this newsgroup know much more about it, so I'd
love to hear corrections and additions to that story.

Ken


  #8  
Old December 16th 03, 04:37 PM
Jeff Potter
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Default what was 'the New Skate' ?

Ken Roberts wrote:

[ ] Audun Endestad skated on the U.S. National ski team, and then teamed
with
John Teaford in 1987 to write a book called "Skating for Cross-Country
Skiers". A sound treatment of ski skating technique for racers, with lots
of good tips that are still helpful today.


I recall glancing at that book a few times and thinking he was teaching a kind
of toilet seat position. He copied speedskaters too much. Reminded me of the
early Koch video as well. It has ankle flex but no forwardness. It doesn't seem
like the feet 'swim' but that there are huge shoves with weight-back. Butt
drops too much. Did I miss the good stuff or remember it all wrong?

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself culture...
...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
...rare books on ski, bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller
about smalltown smuggling ... radical novels coming up!
...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
plus national travel forums! HOLY SMOKES! 800-763-6923


  #9  
Old December 16th 03, 09:19 PM
Chris Cline
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Default what was 'the New Skate' ?

--0-1413041232-1071595423=:14738
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Based on what I noticed while teaching a ski clinic last night, I agree with the "compromise" position. My one concern about the "new skate" with newer/"weaker"/ less accomplished skiers, is the emphasis on cadence. I think it would be easy for a less technically proficient skiier to have a fast cadence, but always be _between their skis_, rather than rapidly transferring their weight from ski to ski.

I thought that Ken's outline was really great, and I plan on using it for a sort of "checklist" to teach by. However, for people just learning to skate, I think that it's a good idea to have them "slow down the motion" and ski slow and pretty (i.e., correct technique) rather than fast and choppy.

However, once you've got good weight transfer, I don't think that we should reserve the New Skate just for the "elite skiiers"-- for us ordinary mortals, I think that it would be good to try to achieve the more rapid turnover and faster glide that a higher cadence allows. As long as we try to keep the technique clean as we do that-- not getting into "windmill" mode!

Chris C.
SLC

Jeff Potter wrote:
Ken Roberts wrote:

[ ] and I see former
opponent Borowski joining forces with Vordenberg in new magazine articles.


It looks like Lee created a truce by saying that aspects of the old
'ride'n'glide' work better for weaker citizen skiers and that we mortals can't
use all the benefits of the elite new skate. In other words, Lee says he agrees
with Pete but only for elite skiers and that weaker skiers will bail out more
often into the old ride'n'glide. ??

[ ] I kept hoping the ideas
will get published in a book that everyone can read and discuss, but I still
haven't see it yet.


Is there a hot book out there? I have the oddly-shaped Ski Skating that seems
pretty good. Is it Old or New Skate? : )

[ ]
_____________________________________
The New Skate
-- ideas from Vordenberg's 2000-2001 articles

(A) Legs -- use both of them equally


Set them down in a 'ready to power' position, not too far under body.

Feet seem to have a smooth, continuous, 'swimming' style. Dynamic--no harsh
shove but also less rest-spots.

Heel-Power! Kick the powering foot down and FORWARD to keep heel down as long
as possible when powering. --As per speedskating.

(C) Quiet Upper Body


Hands/arms work more in a 'flicky' way---less huge commitment and total
followthru. Max the sweetspot and bail on the rest.

[ ]
(2) No dipping or twisting or rotating -- never ever.


I recall Lee saying that weaker skiers will twist as well as glide more. Also
that personal style brings aspects of Old Skate into play even with WC skiers.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself culture...
...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
...rare books on ski, bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller
about smalltown smuggling ... radical novels coming up!
...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
plus national travel forums! HOLY SMOKES! 800-763-6923







---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing
--0-1413041232-1071595423=:14738
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

DIVBased on what I noticed while teaching a ski clinic last night, I agree with the "compromise" position.  My one concern about the "new skate" with newer/"weaker"/ less accomplished skiers, is the emphasis on cadence.  I think it would be easy for a less technically proficient skiier to have a fast cadence, but always be _between their skis_, rather than rapidly transferring their weight from ski to ski.  /DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVI thought that Ken's outline was really great, and I plan on using it for a sort of "checklist" to teach by.  However, for people just learning to skate, I think that it's a good idea to have them "slow down the motion" and ski slow and pretty (i.e., correct technique) rather than fast and choppy./DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVHowever, once you've got good weight transfer, I don't think that we should reserve the New Skate just for the "elite skiiers"-- for us ordinary mortals, I think that it would be good to try to achieve the more rapid turnover and faster glide that a higher cadence allows.  As long as we try to keep the technique clean as we do that-- not getting into "windmill" mode!/DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVChris C./DIV
DIVSLCBRBRBIJeff Potter >/I/B wrote:/DIV
BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"Ken Roberts wrote:BRBR> [ ] and I see formerBR> opponent Borowski joining forces with Vordenberg in new magazine articles.BRBRIt looks like Lee created a truce by saying that aspects of the oldBR'ride'n'glide' work better for weaker citizen skiers and that we mortals can'tBRuse all the benefits of the elite new skate. In other words, Lee says he agreesBRwith Pete but only for elite skiers and that weaker skiers will bail out moreBRoften into the old ride'n'glide. ??BRBR> [ ] I kept hoping the ideasBR> will get published in a book that everyone can read and discuss, but I stillBR> haven't see it yet.BRBRIs there a hot book out there? I have the oddly-shaped Ski Skating that seemsBRpretty good. Is it Old or New Skate? : )BRBR> [ ]BR> _____________________________________BR> The New SkateBR> -- ideas from Vorde!
nberg's
2000-2001 articlesBR>BR> (A) Legs -- use both of them equallyBRBRSet them down in a 'ready to power' position, not too far under body.BRBRFeet seem to have a smooth, continuous, 'swimming' style. Dynamic--no harshBRshove but also less rest-spots.BRBRHeel-Power! Kick the powering foot down and FORWARD to keep heel down as longBRas possible when powering. --As per speedskating.BRBR> (C) Quiet Upper BodyBRBRHands/arms work more in a 'flicky' way---less huge commitment and totalBRfollowthru. Max the sweetspot and bail on the rest.BRBR> [ ]BR> (2) No dipping or twisting or rotating -- never ever.BRBRI recall Lee saying that weaker skiers will twist as well as glide more. AlsoBRthat personal style brings aspects of Old Skate into play even with WC skiers.BRBR--BRBRJeff PotterBR****BR*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.comBRpublisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself culture...BR...offering "small !
world"
views on bikes, bows, books, movies...BR...rare books on ski, bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thrillerBRabout smalltown smuggling ... radical novels coming up!BR...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!BRplus national travel forums! HOLY SMOKES! 800-763-6923BRBRBRBRBRBR/BLOCKQUOTEphr SIZE=1
Do you Yahoo!?br
a href="http://pa.yahoo.com/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=21260/*http://photos.yahoo.com"New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing/a
--0-1413041232-1071595423=:14738--




  #10  
Old December 17th 03, 12:39 AM
Jeff Potter
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Posts: n/a
Default what was 'the New Skate' ?

When I looked at the latest Janne vids it seemed that classic had maybe even slower tempo than skating! I was impressed by how slow the classic tempo was! Had a kind of retro look even.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself culture...
...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
...rare books on ski, bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller
about smalltown smuggling ... radical novels coming up!
...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
plus national travel forums! HOLY SMOKES! 800-763-6923


 




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