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approaching the dark side



 
 
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  #21  
Old December 19th 03, 03:43 PM
Peter Clinch
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Ken Roberts wrote:

-- boots for serious ski-skate racing have soles that are pretty stiff,
similar to a Scarpa F1 AT boot.


But they also have toe bindings designed to take skating forces through
them, where the Dynafit doesn't. Agressive skating and trudging uphill
aren't necessarily comparable from a design point of view.

-- the most popular binding for serious ski-skate racing (Salomon Pilot)
_does_ indeed have a _hook_ whose purpose is to keep the heel and ski close.


I was quite aware of that, which is why I pointed out that if there was
any advanatage for an AT setup for skating then an AT setup for skating
is just what be found in competition

-- unlike most tele boot-binding combintions, the Salomon Pilot binding has
no resistance which must first be overcome in order to press the heel of the
boot against the ski.


For a "rolling terrain" setup using 3 pin bindings (pretty normal)
there's no real resistance to pushing the heel down.

The _mushiness_ of the heel connection ("rocker
launch") in most telemark boot-binding combinations is a very strange
concept to ski-skate racers. That's where an AT binding has an obvious
advantage for skating.


Quite possibly, but relying on skating possibilities for backcountry
travel is rather wishful thinking in a lot of cases: kick 'n stick is
generally more likely to come into play, especially over many miles with
a heavy pack, and it's there that a natural walking motion rolling off a
flexing foot is a winner. You could do that with an F1/Dynafit, I
suppose, but not everyone chooses F1s or Dynafits for various good reasons.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

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  #22  
Old December 19th 03, 06:04 PM
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article ,
Peter Clinch wrote:
bbense+rec.skiing.backcountry.Dec.18.03@telemark. slac.stanford.edu wrote:

_ I'm not so convinced of this as I was. Having actually tried
it, I think there is a lot to be said for AT in rolling terrain.
Particularly, if there is any chance of skating.


But it's a lot easier to put skate power through the ball of your foot
than via a hinge in front of it. Otherwise the track skaters would be
using rigid boots now.


_ They pretty much are... They certainly don't bend at the toe in
normal use. Many people skate with combi boots, that allow toe
bend for diagonal striding, but pure skate boots are pretty stiff.


Rolling terrain is a place for wax.


_ Not everywhere, I have my "rolling terrain AT" setup on waxless
skis that most people would put NNN/BC or 3 pins on. There are
places where waxing works well, but for most days in the Sierra
you'd need to carry 3 or 4 waxes and be changing/rewaxing every
hour or so.

I guess you could put a randonee
binding on a ski designed for grip wax, but I think there's probably a
reason why nobody does.


_ BAH, I'm not convinced that backcountry gear is anywhere near
optimized. It's just everybody copying what everbody else does.
I don't think we yet have good answers for the compromises
BC skiing requires. You can use grip wax on ANY ski, granted it
works better on skis with more camber, but it works.
Besides, I'm doing it and there was a recent article in
Backcountry about other people that have tried it as well.

If you're using skins in rolling terrain, even
with heavy packs, it makes a huge reduction in speed (hitting some
whiteout in a navigation tight spot last year, we all put our 40 mm
mohair skins on to slow us down to a predictable trudge)


_ True, I was not suggesting that, but your contention that AT ==
Skins, is just your prejudice.


the Silvretta bar and heel just plain works... The one place
where AT clearly loses is kick'n'glide, you can do it, but
it's just not the same.


Quite: and I find kick and glide is the way to eat up miles. Perhaps we
have a different idea of "rolling terrain"?


_ True, my idea of rolling terrain includes things that are
fun to ski down. You can get really good gear for making
turns and really good gear for covering miles, but finding
compromise gear that will do both is difficult. Believe me,
I got a garage full of experiments, some more sucessful than
others. If you can get beyond your prejudices about what you
can and cannot do with AT gear, I think it's a viable alternative
if you don't want to telemark.

_ Booker C. Bense


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  #23  
Old December 20th 03, 04:12 AM
Hal Murray
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_ Not everywhere, I have my "rolling terrain AT" setup on waxless
skis that most people would put NNN/BC or 3 pins on. There are
places where waxing works well, but for most days in the Sierra
you'd need to carry 3 or 4 waxes and be changing/rewaxing every
hour or so.


If the sun is out, that might be every 50-100 ft.
(It depends upon the tree spacing.)

--
The suespammers.org mail server is located in California. So are all my
other mailboxes. Please do not send unsolicited bulk e-mail or unsolicited
commercial e-mail to my suespammers.org address or any of my other addresses.
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  #24  
Old December 21st 03, 08:43 AM
Andrew Lee
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"Ken Roberts" wrote in message :

Skate power is mainly through the heel.


Off topic. Maybe this is a topic for rsn, but...
From what I've gathered through various sources as I was learning to skate
is that the skate push is through the whole foot. The APU website (of Jim
Galanes... ex-US ski team, 4 athletes in 2002 Olympics) before they updated
it, used to have a technique page where he said that the push is through the
whole foot, with the greatest pressure in the forefoot. When I was
learning, I didn't pay attention to this advice because I was just trying to
get down the trail without falling, but as I've gotten faster (to about 2:30
for hilly 50K in three self taught seasons), it's helped a lot as a
visualization technique to get my weight forward into a proper position. If
you agree that a balanced weight forward position is good, how is that going
to work with more weight in the heel than the forefoot? Stand up, bend your
ankles, get your torso to about the same angle as your shins... where is
your weight? In the forefoot area. If it's mostly on your heels, you are
in a "sitting in a bucket" position, no?

Peter Clinch wrote
But it's a lot easier to put skate power through the ball
of your foot than via a hinge in front of it. Otherwise the
track skaters would be using rigid boots now.


Focus on toe-push is a well-known pitfall for beginner skaters. The move
that leads to advanced skating (for touring or racing, not tricks) is to
learn to focus on pushing thru the heel, together with learning to push
directly out toward the side (not toward the back). That's true whether
skating on ice, pavement, or snow.



What I am describing is not a toe push because the whole foot includes the
heel. Maybe you mean "heel down", rather than "heel push"? If I get the
rolling over the toes feel when pushing off, that is a beginner-like muff
and pushing "back" too much. I concentrate on getting my ankle flexed
enough at the start of the push and directing the push directly to the side
of my FOOT (I visually a spot at the back of the ball of my foot), not body.
All of the race videos I see with side views (and all the skiers in person
in town, where everyone seems to have great technique), the push is more to
the side of the body than the back, but not directly to the side... more
like perpendicular to the ski. In uphills (V1), the skis are V'ed out more
and the push is more to the back than on fast terrain when the skis have a
smaller angle between them. Since you are pushing off to the other ski and
that other ski is generally "stepped" forward (though you should push/fall
to it rather than stepping to it), isn't your push is angled off towards the
back by roughly arcsin("step" length/push length) from directly to the side?
That's what I see in the videos anyway and my skating has improved a lot
since I have starting watching race videos (of past 4 Olympics, Janne's
shorter downloads). Of the technique advice that I see in publications and
internet I've found some good, some bad, but even some of the good advice is
not technically accurate (pushing to the side) but more useful as
visualization help.


  #25  
Old December 21st 03, 02:28 PM
Peter Clinch
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lac.stanford.edu wrote:

_ True, I was not suggesting that, but your contention that AT ==
Skins, is just your prejudice.


Fair enough, I was just working from the setups I've seen in the shops
and on the hill, which is, of course, hardly exhaustive.

others. If you can get beyond your prejudices about what you
can and cannot do with AT gear, I think it's a viable alternative
if you don't want to telemark.


Though as I've said a few times, tele gear is quite viable if you don't
want to (or can't) telemark. I was using it for years before I could do
teles.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  #26  
Old December 21st 03, 04:42 PM
Gary S.
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On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:28:43 +0000, Peter Clinch
wrote:

bbense+rec.skiing.backcountry.Dec.19.03@telemark. slac.stanford.edu wrote:

_ True, I was not suggesting that, but your contention that AT ==
Skins, is just your prejudice.


Fair enough, I was just working from the setups I've seen in the shops
and on the hill, which is, of course, hardly exhaustive.

others. If you can get beyond your prejudices about what you
can and cannot do with AT gear, I think it's a viable alternative
if you don't want to telemark.


Though as I've said a few times, tele gear is quite viable if you don't
want to (or can't) telemark. I was using it for years before I could do
teles.

Which is why some of us try to avoid calling it tele gear, but use a
term like backcountry skis (which of course shows my bias as to
preferred location to use it).

According to many expert instructors, a good backcountry skier will
have an assortment of ski techniques and use them as appropriate,
sometimes switching during a run. This goes back to the early days of
skiing in North America, when there was no distinction between
different types of skiing.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom
  #27  
Old December 21st 03, 09:46 PM
Martin Thornquist
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[ Gary S. ]

Which is why some of us try to avoid calling it tele gear, but use a
term like backcountry skis (which of course shows my bias as to
preferred location to use it).


How about "freeheel"? This sounds like a technical description of the
gear (the other category being "fixed heel"), with no bias as to
skiing technique or location.


Martin
--
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  #28  
Old December 22nd 03, 12:34 AM
Gary S.
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On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 22:46:18 +0100, Martin Thornquist
wrote:

[ Gary S. ]

Which is why some of us try to avoid calling it tele gear, but use a
term like backcountry skis (which of course shows my bias as to
preferred location to use it).


How about "freeheel"? This sounds like a technical description of the
gear (the other category being "fixed heel"), with no bias as to
skiing technique or location.

"Free the heels, free the mind".

It makes more sense, but is less clear to those outside the world of
skiing.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom
  #29  
Old December 22nd 03, 02:49 PM
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article ,
Martin Thornquist wrote:
[ Gary S. ]

Which is why some of us try to avoid calling it tele gear, but use a
term like backcountry skis (which of course shows my bias as to
preferred location to use it).


How about "freeheel"? This sounds like a technical description of the
gear (the other category being "fixed heel"), with no bias as to
skiing technique or location.


_ The funny thing is that most gear under the current definition
of telemark is not "free heel". I think there is a 3rd class of
skiing emerging that I would call "constrained heel". Sure you
can lift your heel up, but you have to exert a fair amount of
force to do so depending on exactly what boots/bindings you
have. I think that this is enough of a difference that it
actually requires a change in technique. This is neither bad
or good, just different. It does make the problem of finding
gear for the tours'n'turn compromise even more confusing though.

_ For good or ill, we are stuck with the "telemark"
label. Exactly what it is seems to change drastically
every few years though... Everything in backcountry
skiing is a compromise in some way, the art is picking
which area you are willing to suffer the most. In my
experience the biggest thing you give up in choosing
AT gear is the joy of the telemark turn.

_ Now if I could only get over this damn flu and actually
go skiing instead of sitting in bed. Is anybody skiing?
Post some trip reports, the important thing is getting
out there, what you do it on matters little in the end.

_ Booker C. Bense

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  #30  
Old December 22nd 03, 05:13 PM
John Red-Horse
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In article ,
Idontwantspam@net wrote:
On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 22:46:18 +0100, Martin Thornquist
wrote:

[ Gary S. ]

Which is why some of us try to avoid calling it tele gear, but use a
term like backcountry skis (which of course shows my bias as to
preferred location to use it).


How about "freeheel"? This sounds like a technical description of the
gear (the other category being "fixed heel"), with no bias as to
skiing technique or location.

"Free the heels, free the mind".


Would this to be true. I've found many telemark skiers to be among the
most parochial folks I've ever met. Go figure.

It makes more sense, but is less clear to those outside the world of
skiing.


It's not really that clear, since freeheel gear includes classic
and skating-style cross country equipment, along with the continuum of
telemark gear from leather boots (less common these days, but still
available nonetheless) on three-pin bindings and "skinny" skis to, say
Scarpa T-Races on Linkens with Fischer Big Stix 10.6s.

Besides, doesn't the phrase "backcountry skis" include AT gear? (It's
what I'm finding to be more and more common in the backcountry every
year.)

cheers,
john


 




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