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why hardboots?



 
 
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  #91  
Old March 22nd 04, 08:18 AM
Arvin Chang
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Default why hardboots?

"Mike T" wrote in message ...
Interesting, whay size feet and whawt width board to you ride?
Obviously I'm still playing with my stance setup.


Mondo 28, on a 19.5 cm wide board. Those angles give me a couple of mm
overhang on the rear foot, and a couple of mm underhang on the front
foot.


Just another data point:

Raichle shell, Mondo 25, Catek or TD2 step-in bindings, ~19" wide stance

18 cm waist - 57 back foot is flush with edge
18.5 waist - 55 back foot is flush (bigger sidecut than above board, means
less widening as you go out from waist)
21.5 waist - pretty much any alpine stance will underhang a bit

Mike T


How do you compute over/underhang? I'm riding a Mondo 25.5 Oxygen
Protons, which actually have soles that are a couple of mm longer than
my 26 Raichle 224s.

The Prior 4WD had a 21.3 waist, 9.5 m sidecut and it looks like I had
0 overhand (looking straight down) with 53/48. My Burton Ultraprime
162 has like a 20 cm (roughly) waist. How much does a wide board make
a difference? Like is a 19 cm board much quick edge to edge than a 21
cm board?
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  #92  
Old March 22nd 04, 09:04 AM
Baka Dasai
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Default why hardboots?

On 22 Mar 2004 00:18:14 -0800, Arvin Chang said (and I quote):
How do you compute over/underhang? I'm riding a Mondo 25.5 Oxygen
Protons, which actually have soles that are a couple of mm longer than
my 26 Raichle 224s.


I don't really *compute* it. I just click my boots into the bindings,
and then hold the board perpendicular to the ground, and then try to put
a ruler at 90 deg to the edge.

How much does a wide board make
a difference? Like is a 19 cm board much quick edge to edge than a 21
cm board?


I don't think the edge-to-edge issue is that important. Better to
figure out the stance angles you like, and then get a board the right
width for them. Alternatively, if you want to ride powder you have to
figure that into it.
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  #93  
Old March 22nd 04, 04:42 PM
Mike T
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Default why hardboots?

How do you compute over/underhang? I'm riding a Mondo 25.5 Oxygen
Protons, which actually have soles that are a couple of mm longer than
my 26 Raichle 224s.


I don't really *compute* it. I just click my boots into the bindings,
and then hold the board perpendicular to the ground, and then try to put
a ruler at 90 deg to the edge.


Same here - not computing at all. I just mount the bidning but the top
plate loose, put the boot in the binding and rotate the top plate until the
boot is flush with the edge. I do this with the board leaned against the
wall at an angle, boot facing inward, so I'm looking at the base.... and
find the lowest angle such that you can't see any boot or binding when
looking at the base. Close enough for gov't work. This is how I choose
the "starting out" stance on a new board... set the back binding up so its
flush and then add another 3 - 5 degrees to the front.

How much does a wide board make
a difference? Like is a 19 cm board much quick edge to edge than a 21
cm board?


I don't think the edge-to-edge issue is that important. Better to
figure out the stance angles you like, and then get a board the right
width for them. Alternatively, if you want to ride powder you have to
figure that into it.


Works best if you have a demo tent at your disposal

Ideally I'd have alpine boards with a few different waist widths for
different types of snow. On hardpack I prefer an 18 cm waist because
edge-to-edge response is noticeably better and more important to
performance. For days when it's snowing in the AM and the groomers have a
layer of snow on them (very common at Mt Hood) I like a wider waist and a
little boot underhang... this way the board clears a better path for the
boots to follow. Same for carving the corn snow.

I find I'm comfortable with anything from 54/48 to 66/63... higher being
better for aggressive carving due to the fact that higher angles tend to
favor heelside which I am weaker at.

Mike T




  #94  
Old March 22nd 04, 05:44 PM
Neil Gendzwill
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Default why hardboots?

One thing you have to watch for on the heel side is all the gee-gaws
that stick out the back of the boot. I like to put the boot in the
binding and then lay the board over 90 degrees to make sure nothing
hits, not the heel nor the lean adjustor or whatever.

  #95  
Old March 22nd 04, 09:06 PM
Jason Watkins
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Default why hardboots?

Just another point of comparison:

I'm in size 27 Raichle/Deeluxe, and on a 24 cm waist board I have
probibly 5mm or more of underhang with angles as low as 48.

Recently I got to ride a board that was 1.5 cm narrower in the waist
than my usual board (this is on softboots) and it felt dramaticly
quicker edge to edge. Since then, I've started to think that "edge
quickness" has more to do with how much overhang or underhange you
have, not the actual width. More clearly: I suspect thata a 21.5 cm
freecarve board with a stance that had 0 overhang would feel basicly
as fast as a 19 cm race/freecarve board that also had a stance of 0
overhang.

Mike: you're probibly the only person I know that rides a few
different stances and widths... what do you think?
  #96  
Old March 22nd 04, 09:37 PM
Arvin Chang
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Default why hardboots?

Baka Dasai wrote in message ...
On 22 Mar 2004 00:18:14 -0800, Arvin Chang said (and I quote):
How do you compute over/underhang? I'm riding a Mondo 25.5 Oxygen
Protons, which actually have soles that are a couple of mm longer than
my 26 Raichle 224s.


I don't really *compute* it. I just click my boots into the bindings,
and then hold the board perpendicular to the ground, and then try to put
a ruler at 90 deg to the edge.


I meant to say what are you measuing from, with my low angles I see a
tiny bit overhang on the other toe bail of my bindings, but my boots
are pretty much inside the board profile (this is with a 21.3 cm
board).


How much does a wide board make
a difference? Like is a 19 cm board much quick edge to edge than a 21
cm board?


I don't think the edge-to-edge issue is that important. Better to
figure out the stance angles you like, and then get a board the right
width for them. Alternatively, if you want to ride powder you have to
figure that into it.


I see, I felt with the Prior 4WD board that it seems like I had to
angulate a lot before the board started to really come up on edge,
even compared to the Burton UP, which is only 1 cm narrower.
  #97  
Old March 23rd 04, 03:03 PM
Mike T
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Default why hardboots?

While we're on the subjet of hard boots, www.bomberonline.com has their
boots on sale right now.

The best deals IMHO a

Raichle SB 423 - $150
Raichle SB 413 - $125

Limited sizes are available

Even with all the criticisms of Raichle boots listed here, IMHO either of
these makes a great first pair of hard boots especially at these prices.
The 423s come with a Thermoflex liner.

As Arvin, myself, and others have found out, sizing hard boots can be
tricky. Everyone says "measure your foot in cm and order your measurement
in Mondo Point size" but for many of us that gives you a boot that's too
big. Example: My feet measue about 26.5 cm in length but I use a 26
Salomon Malamute soft boot - and a 25 Raichle SB series shell. I rode for
two years on 26 Raichle shells until I realized they were too big!

Bomber is really good about returns if you follow the rules - try them on in
the house. If you think you're in between two sizes you can order both and
then return the one that doesn't fit as well, they're used to people doing
that.

-Mike T

Disclaimer: I don't work for Bomber, I'm just a very satisfied customer of
theirs.


  #98  
Old March 23rd 04, 03:47 PM
Mike T
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Posts: n/a
Default why hardboots?

Recently I got to ride a board that was 1.5 cm narrower in the waist
than my usual board (this is on softboots) and it felt dramaticly
quicker edge to edge. Since then, I've started to think that "edge
quickness" has more to do with how much overhang or underhange you
have, not the actual width. More clearly: I suspect thata a 21.5 cm
freecarve board with a stance that had 0 overhang would feel basicly
as fast as a 19 cm race/freecarve board that also had a stance of 0
overhang.

Mike: you're probibly the only person I know that rides a few
different stances and widths... what do you think?


I think it's a little more complicated than that unfortunately.

First of all there are factors other than waist width and overhang,
underhang or lack thereof. Torsional stiffness is a big factor. A board
that is more torsionally stiff will change edges faster than one that is
less torsionally stiff.

Also keep in mind that going from, using Jason's example, 21.5 cm to 19 cm,
keeping your boots flush with the edges requires a pretty radical change in
stance. Most of us won't be able to ride equally well in both stances.
When I'm on my Axis (21.5 cm) I ride with probably 5 - 10 mm of underhang,
because the loss in edge change speed (which is noticeable BTW) is more than
made up for in comfort and the ability to apply my "normal" alpine technique
at the higher angles. (Although Jason would probably say that I still look
a lot better on my Coiler at even higher stance angles.)

So that's about all I can say from personal experience... I suspect the more
advanced folks over at Bomber would be able to pick this argument apart and
get to the bottom of it.

FWIW, I can say that a Donek FC 163 at 18 cm waist changes edges noticeably
faster than a Coiler PR 184 at 18.5 cm. Much more than one would expect
given the tiny 5mm difference in waist width. The Donek is noticeably
torsionally stiffer.

Edge change speed isn't the end all, be all of alpine riding though... it's
only one part.

On that Donek I found that edge changes happened without thinking about it,
but holding the edge through the turn took some focus.

On the Coiler edge changes take a little focus, but holding the edge through
the turn just happens.

I don't know how much of that is due to who made the boards and how much is
due to them being different lengths and sidecut though - hopefully I'll try
other peoples' boards and find out some day!

Mike T









 




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