Struggles going upshill

Hi

Any tips/ suggestions about how to Skate easier going uphill. It seems I
struggle way to much and often am exhausted from it. The hills are fairly
good size so I expect some tiredness but not a much as I seem to have.

Jay

Lessons. Conditioning. Additionally, watch World Cup/Championship
videos and follow/watch good skiers. Where are you located and do you
ski?

Gene

Jay Pollock wrote:

Hi

Any tips/ suggestions about how to Skate easier going uphill. It seems I
struggle way to much and often am exhausted from it. The hills are fairly
good size so I expect some tiredness but not a much as I seem to have.

Jay

Most people struggle with v1 uphills because they word too hard. I'm
not trying to be flippant here, but am pointing out that you have skis
on your feet and they GLIDE. Most folks march up the hill pushing back
with their leg like they are just running up the hill with turned out
feet. Here's the secret: You must keep your skis moving whenever they
are on the snow. No dead skis! How to achieve this?

Some simple drills:

On a flat section stand with skis pointing forward. With weight on
left foot slide your right foot forward with a quick motion. As your
leg goes out the ski will lift up, but don't pull it up. Feel how the
ski skis up and off the snow. Alternate feet. I call this the
lazy-goose-step.

Now put your skis in a V and add some weight shift. Keep the kicking
forward motion, but add a little back and forth so you are kicking off
a weighted ski. You will move forward. Amazing, eh?

Try this on a gradual uphill with no poles. YOu should be able to
float up the hill (slowly) with very little effort.

Now try the hill again doing it "hotfoot" style where you go with as
quick a tempo with your skis as possible, but not with much power.

Try normal V1 after this and see if you can do it with the same
quickness and kick-off as you did in the drill.

Rob Bradlee

--- Jay Pollock wrote:

Hi

Any tips/ suggestions about how to Skate easier going uphill. It
seems I
struggle way to much and often am exhausted from it. The hills are
fairly
good size so I expect some tiredness but not a much as I seem to
have.

Jay










=====
Rob Bradlee
Java, C++, Perl, XML, OOAD, Linux, and Unix Training

On 1 Mar 2005 08:11:35 -0800, Rob Bradlee wrote:

Most people struggle with v1 uphills because they word too hard. I'm
not trying to be flippant here, but am pointing out that you have skis
on your feet and they GLIDE. Most folks march up the hill pushing back
with their leg like they are just running up the hill with turned out
feet. Here's the secret: You must keep your skis moving whenever they
are on the snow. No dead skis! How to achieve this?

Some simple drills:

On a flat section stand with skis pointing forward. With weight on
left foot slide your right foot forward with a quick motion. As your
leg goes out the ski will lift up, but don't pull it up. Feel how the
ski skis up and off the snow. Alternate feet. I call this the
lazy-goose-step.

Now put your skis in a V and add some weight shift. Keep the kicking
forward motion, but add a little back and forth so you are kicking off
a weighted ski. You will move forward. Amazing, eh?

Try this on a gradual uphill with no poles. YOu should be able to
float up the hill (slowly) with very little effort.

Now try the hill again doing it "hotfoot" style where you go with as
quick a tempo with your skis as possible, but not with much power.

Try normal V1 after this and see if you can do it with the same
quickness and kick-off as you did in the drill.

Rob Bradlee

--- Jay Pollock wrote:

Hi

Any tips/ suggestions about how to Skate easier going uphill. It
seems I
struggle way to much and often am exhausted from it. The hills are
fairly
good size so I expect some tiredness but not a much as I seem to
have.

Jay


I have the same issue as the original poster, Rob, and that has stopped me
from doing skate races. Skate skiing is not the same as hockey skating,
which involves a lot of pushing backwards. I'm beginning to get the hang
of it, and your drills look as if they will help to get me floating up the
hills the way I see others doing it.

Leland




--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Rob has some good drills and is correct that the key is being able to
glide up the hill. The problem many people have is that what's learned
on lesser gradients breaks down on steeper ones as their weight falls
back and they are not sure what to do about it. I'm going to guess
that's your difficulty, too. The key is learning - and developing a
conception of - how to keep your torso (core) forward so the skis are
underneath you and have a chance to glide.

How? The surest instructional method I've found is to identify your
core point and ski "from there." Simply, find the point halfway between
your public bone and navel, then mentally take it inside halfway between
your legs (think of it as a fist sized area). Make that area the focal
point of your skiing as you go up the hill (or anywhere, for that
matter). If you feel it falling back, bring it forward. Doing that is
aided by starting your next gliding ski in close underneath you (and the
core point) and poling through and past your hip as the ski glides. The
final step that good skiers use on hills is to turn the pelvis (or core)
from ski to ski, as soon as the glide starts on one. That keeps the
momentum going without bogging down on one side.

There is more to it than that in terms of other aspects and refinements,
poling for example (strong side pole forward, not to the outside). But
getting your core working for you is the first and main thing to
successful skating (and striding) and will get you a long way on skis.
Good skiing,

Gene


Leland Yee wrote:

I have the same issue as the original poster, Rob, and that has stopped me
from doing skate races. Skate skiing is not the same as hockey skating,
which involves a lot of pushing backwards. I'm beginning to get the hang
of it, and your drills look as if they will help to get me floating up the
hills the way I see others doing it.

Leland

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Hello,

I tried the drill, and unfortunately it did not help me float up hills, and
it did not even help me move along the flats. Although, I will continue to
try the drill and keep my hopes up. However, I did find the following
website, and it describes how to skate up hills:

http://www.roberts-1.com/xcski/skate/climb/index.htm

and two key tips I garnered from the instructions so far a

1) You should strive to find a gear that allows you to skate up hill slowly,
so you don't wear yourself out and negatively affect your ability to ski the
flats.

2) In pursuit of finding a lower gear:
---a)
---b) Don't make a full poling motion, i.e. instead of trying to plant the
poles vertically out in front of you, plant the poles so the poles are
angled backwards. I think that means you don't bring your hands as far
forward, which serves to shorten the poling motion, and it seems to help me
keep time with the shorter gliding phase with less effort.

*(just a beginner, so I don't know anything)*

Maybe the original poster will find the Hill Climbing article helpful.

good luck, tom

"Leland Yee" wrote in message
news
On 1 Mar 2005 08:11:35 -0800, Rob Bradlee wrote:

Most people struggle with v1 uphills because they word too hard. I'm
not trying to be flippant here, but am pointing out that you have skis
on your feet and they GLIDE. Most folks march up the hill pushing back
with their leg like they are just running up the hill with turned out
feet. Here's the secret: You must keep your skis moving whenever they
are on the snow. No dead skis! How to achieve this?

Some simple drills:

On a flat section stand with skis pointing forward. With weight on
left foot slide your right foot forward with a quick motion. As your
leg goes out the ski will lift up, but don't pull it up. Feel how the
ski skis up and off the snow. Alternate feet. I call this the
lazy-goose-step.

Now put your skis in a V and add some weight shift. Keep the kicking
forward motion, but add a little back and forth so you are kicking off
a weighted ski. You will move forward. Amazing, eh?

Try this on a gradual uphill with no poles. YOu should be able to
float up the hill (slowly) with very little effort.

Now try the hill again doing it "hotfoot" style where you go with as
quick a tempo with your skis as possible, but not with much power.

Try normal V1 after this and see if you can do it with the same
quickness and kick-off as you did in the drill.

Rob Bradlee

--- Jay Pollock wrote:

Hi

Any tips/ suggestions about how to Skate easier going uphill. It
seems I
struggle way to much and often am exhausted from it. The hills are
fairly
good size so I expect some tiredness but not a much as I seem to
have.

Jay


I have the same issue as the original poster, Rob, and that has stopped me
from doing skate races. Skate skiing is not the same as hockey skating,
which involves a lot of pushing backwards. I'm beginning to get the hang
of it, and your drills look as if they will help to get me floating up the
hills the way I see others doing it.

Leland




--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Gene Goldenfeld wrote:
Rob has some good drills and is correct that the key is being able to
glide up the hill. The problem many people have is that what's
learned
on lesser gradients breaks down on steeper ones as their weight falls
back and they are not sure what to do about it. I'm going to guess
that's your difficulty, too. The key is learning - and developing a
conception of - how to keep your torso (core) forward so the skis are
underneath you and have a chance to glide.

How? The surest instructional method I've found is to identify your
core point and ski "from there." Simply, find the point halfway
between
your public bone and navel, then mentally take it inside halfway
between
your legs (think of it as a fist sized area). Make that area the
focal
point of your skiing as you go up the hill (or anywhere, for that
matter). If you feel it falling back, bring it forward. Doing that
is
aided by starting your next gliding ski in close underneath you (and
the
core point) and poling through and past your hip as the ski glides.
The
final step that good skiers use on hills is to turn the pelvis (or
core)
from ski to ski, as soon as the glide starts on one. That keeps the
momentum going without bogging down on one side.

Thanks for the advice on keeping my core forward. It is quite apparent
that, when I don't, glide stops. I'm not yet floating up hills, and I
may never, but keeping the core forward does keep the skis gliding.
Keeping the "V" as narrow as I can also seems to help with glide.

Leland

There is more to it than that in terms of other aspects and
refinements,
poling for example (strong side pole forward, not to the outside).
But
getting your core working for you is the first and main thing to
successful skating (and striding) and will get you a long way on
skis.
Good skiing,

Gene


Leland Yee wrote:

I have the same issue as the original poster, Rob, and that has
stopped me
from doing skate races. Skate skiing is not the same as hockey
skating,
which involves a lot of pushing backwards. I'm beginning to get
the hang
of it, and your drills look as if they will help to get me floating
up the
hills the way I see others doing it.

Leland

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

nnn wrote
2) In pursuit of finding a lower gear:
---b) Don't make a full poling motion

Something I would add to that is that when the hill gets so steep that you
find yourself starting to think about how to shorten the poling motion
substantially in order to fit in with shorter leg-pushes at a faster
turnover rate -- then it's getting time to switch from the double-poling V1
skate (a.k.a. "offset", "paddle-dance") to a single-poling "coaches" skate
(a.k.a. "diagonal skate" or "herringbone skate"). At least for most of rest
of us below the 99.7th percentile racers who do lots of the posting on
r.s.n.

"Coaches" are people who are smart about technique but not strong enough to
be eliter racers -- which sounds like where most of us want to get with our
skating technique. Therefore we should be unembarrassed to use single-poling
"coaches" skate, just like those smart coaches. The coordination and timing
of V1 is very difficult to get really effective, and once you start
abbreviating the poling contribution of our sub-elite arm + abs muscles,
there's not much theoretical advantage for V1 over single-poling "coaches"
skate anyway. Instead the difficulty of coordinating the asymmetric V1
poling is undermining the effectiveness of our main leg-push power. The
symmetrical single-poling approach is much simpler to manage, so can focus
on learning to make the legs most effective. (Even simpler to manage is no
poling.)

But the drive that keeps lots of us forcing V1 is tough to fight.

http://www.roberts-1.com/xcski/skate/climb/index.htm
As the one who wrote that page a year ago about how to survive hill
climbing, the biggest thing I learned since was that it was far easier to
write those ideas than it was to actually implement them in my own
skating. (see my other post about "video make-over")

Ken
_____________________________________________
nnn wrote
I tried the drill, and unfortunately it did not help me float up hills,
and
it did not even help me move along the flats. Although, I will continue
to
try the drill and keep my hopes up. However, I did find the following
website, and it describes how to skate up hills:

http://www.roberts-1.com/xcski/skate/climb/index.htm

and two key tips I garnered from the instructions so far a

1) You should strive to find a gear that allows you to skate up hill
slowly,
so you don't wear yourself out and negatively affect your ability to ski
the
flats.

2) In pursuit of finding a lower gear:
---a)
---b) Don't make a full poling motion, i.e. instead of trying to plant the
poles vertically out in front of you, plant the poles so the poles are
angled backwards. I think that means you don't bring your hands as far
forward, which serves to shorten the poling motion, and it seems to help
me
keep time with the shorter gliding phase with less effort.

*(just a beginner, so I don't know anything)*
_________________________________________

Hello,

Something I would add to that is that when the hill gets so steep that you
find yourself starting to think about how to shorten the poling motion
substantially in order to fit in with shorter leg-pushes at a faster
turnover rate -- then it's getting time to switch from the double-poling
V1
skate (a.k.a. "offset", "paddle-dance") to a single-poling "coaches" skate
(a.k.a. "diagonal skate" or "herringbone skate").

I am a total beginner, and I first tried climbing hills using single poling
and a herringbone skate. I thought it worked pretty well--at least compared
to stepping up the hill which was what I was doing before--except that I
almost blew a gasket on every hill. I seem to have found a lower gear using
V1 with a shortened poling motion, which has allowed me to get into a
sustainable rhythm. I can now skate up a long hill that I previously had to
use a mix of single pole herringbone skate, rest stops, and herringbone
stepping to get to the top.

Is single pole herringbone skate actually supposed to be a lower gear than
V1?

thanks, tom


"Ken Roberts" wrote in message
...
nnn wrote
2) In pursuit of finding a lower gear:
---b) Don't make a full poling motion

Something I would add to that is that when the hill gets so steep that you
find yourself starting to think about how to shorten the poling motion
substantially in order to fit in with shorter leg-pushes at a faster
turnover rate -- then it's getting time to switch from the double-poling
V1
skate (a.k.a. "offset", "paddle-dance") to a single-poling "coaches" skate
(a.k.a. "diagonal skate" or "herringbone skate"). At least for most of
rest
of us below the 99.7th percentile racers who do lots of the posting on
r.s.n.

"Coaches" are people who are smart about technique but not strong enough
to
be eliter racers -- which sounds like where most of us want to get with
our
skating technique. Therefore we should be unembarrassed to use
single-poling
"coaches" skate, just like those smart coaches. The coordination and
timing
of V1 is very difficult to get really effective, and once you start
abbreviating the poling contribution of our sub-elite arm + abs muscles,
there's not much theoretical advantage for V1 over single-poling "coaches"
skate anyway. Instead the difficulty of coordinating the asymmetric V1
poling is undermining the effectiveness of our main leg-push power. The
symmetrical single-poling approach is much simpler to manage, so can focus
on learning to make the legs most effective. (Even simpler to manage is
no
poling.)

But the drive that keeps lots of us forcing V1 is tough to fight.

http://www.roberts-1.com/xcski/skate/climb/index.htm
As the one who wrote that page a year ago about how to survive hill
climbing, the biggest thing I learned since was that it was far easier to
write those ideas than it was to actually implement them in my own
skating. (see my other post about "video make-over")

Ken
_____________________________________________
nnn wrote
I tried the drill, and unfortunately it did not help me float up hills,
and
it did not even help me move along the flats. Although, I will
continue
to
try the drill and keep my hopes up. However, I did find the following
website, and it describes how to skate up hills:

http://www.roberts-1.com/xcski/skate/climb/index.htm

and two key tips I garnered from the instructions so far a

1) You should strive to find a gear that allows you to skate up hill
slowly,
so you don't wear yourself out and negatively affect your ability to ski
the
flats.

2) In pursuit of finding a lower gear:
---a)
---b) Don't make a full poling motion, i.e. instead of trying to plant
the
poles vertically out in front of you, plant the poles so the poles are
angled backwards. I think that means you don't bring your hands as far
forward, which serves to shorten the poling motion, and it seems to help
me
keep time with the shorter gliding phase with less effort.

*(just a beginner, so I don't know anything)*
_________________________________________

"Ken Roberts" wrote in message
...
nnn wrote from Ken's site:

1) You should strive to find a gear that allows you to skate up hill
slowly,
so you don't wear yourself out and negatively affect your ability to ski
the
flats.

2) In pursuit of finding a lower gear:
---b) Don't make a full poling motion

Something I would add to that is that when the hill gets so steep that you
find yourself starting to think about how to shorten the poling motion
substantially in order to fit in with shorter leg-pushes at a faster
turnover rate -- then it's getting time to switch from the double-poling
V1
skate (a.k.a. "offset", "paddle-dance") to a single-poling "coaches" skate
(a.k.a. "diagonal skate" or "herringbone skate"). At least for most of
rest
of us below the 99.7th percentile racers who do lots of the posting on
r.s.n.

As an enthusiastic, but aging and not really strong skier who's annual goals
focus on being fit enough to do a 3:30 - 4:00 50k, I agree 100% with the
points made above.

Especially the part of doing whatever it takes to go up those tougher hills
in a way that doesn't trash you. Slow speed, quick, short pace, conscious,
controlled effort. In a long race, even (or maybe especially) at the rate I
go, a "go easy" attitude about the tougher uphills can reap rewards in
having enough energy to work the downhills (e.g. pushing around corners,
etc), push the transitions, and make a HUGE difference if there are extended
"ride and glide" V-2 flats. If you have the energy, it can make a 10% or
more difference in the flats - so just a couple of minutes spent taking it
easy on the tough hills, as opposed to "attacking" them like the strongest
skiers do, can make many minutes difference in the parts where balance and
technique can pay dividends for a weaker skier.

The "coach's skate" is a great way to keep those skis sliding without
stopping when you can't push the V-1 up hill. Only downside is it's tougher
to recruit all the upper body muscles, the abs, and body weight to push the
poles. So it does indeed pay to get that V-1 stronger during training so
you can use it farther up the hill in a race.

Cam