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Help - I can't feel my toes!



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 18th 05, 08:49 PM
Jay Levitt
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Default Help - I can't feel my toes!

I'm 33, brand new skier, 5'9", 180 pounds, street shoe 10.5 to 11,
slightly wide (can't wear Nikes). My feet pronate significantly (3.5
degrees left, 3 degrees right), which naturally means I have either flat
feet or fallen arches (not sure how to tell which), and my legs are
externally rotated. I also have an irritated sciatic nerve from a back
injury last summer.

I spent a weekend at Sunday River last year and had a blast. This
Christmas, I went again, and after just a few hours my feet were killing
me in the rental boots, so I decided to take the plunge and buy a pair.
Buster Bean at the ski shop tried me in a few boots from Nordica,
Technica, and I think Atomic before settling on a pair of size 27
Performa 7's. I skied a few runs in them, and went back to have them
adjusted; another salesman added some SBS shims to help my pronation,
which really helped my balance.

This weekend I went to Sugarloaf, and within an hour of putting on the
boots, my (nonexistent) arches were in agony, and my pinky and ring toes
were numb. I went to the ski shop, which has won some sort of "best
bootfitting" award from Ski magazine, and Russ spent about four hours
with me, blowing out the toes, cutting the SBS shims better (they were
curling), adding a heel shim, and heating the boots. I was still
getting numb after 15 minutes or so in the store, but we figured it was
time to try a few runs to loosen them up.

So the next morning I went out, and while the arch pain was mostly gone,
my toes were still getting numb after an hour or two. Back to the shop.
I didn't feel the boots pressing anywhere except the ankle, so Russ
ground the ankles. Went back out, still getting numb. Came back, and
Russ was gone, so Ian helped me. We tried a few things, and finally, I
asked - is it possible that the boots themselves are the wrong size?
Sure enough, they were too loose; I should really be in a 26. They
won't normally exchange boots from one ASC shop to another, but the
manager was coming in the next morning and could do it. I decided to
take advantage of the opportunity and upgrade to X-Wave 8's since I knew
I'd outgrow the Performas rapidly. At first they were agony, but after
swapping the footbeds for wintergreen Superfeet they were wonderful.

Monday morning: Manager exchanges the boots for me. We put in the
Superfeet and I hit the slopes for a few hours - sans SBS shims since
they won't fit yet. Big improvement in control, but my outer toes are
still numb. Back to the shop, where Ian blows out the toes, grinds the
ankles, and heats the boots. Still numb. Adds back the heel shims
temporarily, since outer numbness can be from pronation stressing the
metatarsals. Still numb! I have to catch a bus to go home, so I don't
get to hit the shop on my way off the slopes.

I am really frustrated with this. What, if anything, can I do? Options
include:

- Just ski through the pain for 5-10 days before revisiting it. The
boots are new and relatively stiff, and both the boots and footbeds will
adjust to my feet. And once the boots expand, I can reinsert the SBS
shims.

- Try custom footbeds. Ian doesn't recommend this; he says that
footbeds improve performance but diminish comfort compared to Superfeet
since they're firmer.

- Try orthopedic footbeds. Apparently there are some things doctors can
do that ski shops aren't allowed to do in terms of shaping. Again, Ian
recommends against.

- Try a fancy shop with the scanning machine. Internet FAQs make these
sound fairly common, but Russ said that they were only at "super-
specialized" shops for high-performance skiing.

- Something else...

Help! Ideas?

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | Hi!
Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?
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  #2  
Old January 18th 05, 09:29 PM
VtSkier
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Jay Levitt wrote:
I'm 33, brand new skier, 5'9", 180 pounds, street shoe 10.5 to 11,
slightly wide (can't wear Nikes). My feet pronate significantly (3.5
degrees left, 3 degrees right), which naturally means I have either flat
feet or fallen arches (not sure how to tell which), and my legs are
externally rotated. I also have an irritated sciatic nerve from a back
injury last summer.

I spent a weekend at Sunday River last year and had a blast. This
Christmas, I went again, and after just a few hours my feet were killing
me in the rental boots, so I decided to take the plunge and buy a pair.
Buster Bean at the ski shop tried me in a few boots from Nordica,
Technica, and I think Atomic before settling on a pair of size 27
Performa 7's. I skied a few runs in them, and went back to have them
adjusted; another salesman added some SBS shims to help my pronation,
which really helped my balance.

This weekend I went to Sugarloaf, and within an hour of putting on the
boots, my (nonexistent) arches were in agony, and my pinky and ring toes
were numb. I went to the ski shop, which has won some sort of "best
bootfitting" award from Ski magazine, and Russ spent about four hours
with me, blowing out the toes, cutting the SBS shims better (they were
curling), adding a heel shim, and heating the boots. I was still
getting numb after 15 minutes or so in the store, but we figured it was
time to try a few runs to loosen them up.

So the next morning I went out, and while the arch pain was mostly gone,
my toes were still getting numb after an hour or two. Back to the shop.
I didn't feel the boots pressing anywhere except the ankle, so Russ
ground the ankles. Went back out, still getting numb. Came back, and
Russ was gone, so Ian helped me. We tried a few things, and finally, I
asked - is it possible that the boots themselves are the wrong size?
Sure enough, they were too loose; I should really be in a 26. They
won't normally exchange boots from one ASC shop to another, but the
manager was coming in the next morning and could do it. I decided to
take advantage of the opportunity and upgrade to X-Wave 8's since I knew
I'd outgrow the Performas rapidly. At first they were agony, but after
swapping the footbeds for wintergreen Superfeet they were wonderful.

Stock footbeds in boots are generally made to be replaced. I have
used Superfeet in the past with some degree of comfort but still
prefer custom foot beds. Read further down.

Yes, X-Wave 8's WILL have a significant improvement in performance
over the Performas. The 8's should also be stiff enough for the
next several years of skiing which, as you guessed, the Performas
simply wouldn't.

Monday morning: Manager exchanges the boots for me. We put in the
Superfeet and I hit the slopes for a few hours - sans SBS shims since
they won't fit yet. Big improvement in control, but my outer toes are
still numb. Back to the shop, where Ian blows out the toes, grinds the
ankles, and heats the boots. Still numb. Adds back the heel shims
temporarily, since outer numbness can be from pronation stressing the
metatarsals. Still numb! I have to catch a bus to go home, so I don't
get to hit the shop on my way off the slopes.

Numbness in extremities may be due to pressure further up your foot/
ankle. Someone who REALLY knows what they are doing can diagnose
and correct this.

I am really frustrated with this. What, if anything, can I do? Options
include:


First, since you have upgraded and resized you boots, I have
to assume that the shell fit is correct, then...

- Just ski through the pain for 5-10 days before revisiting it. The
boots are new and relatively stiff, and both the boots and footbeds will
adjust to my feet. And once the boots expand, I can reinsert the SBS
shims.

Although the liner of the boots will pack out some during the
life of the boot, plastic, since it's resilient, does not
"break-in" like leather. IMO don't try to "tough it out".
It's not worth the pain and you may cause some damage that
will give pain even after the boot is fitting OK. Ask me, I
know. Tried some boots which I KNEW were too narrow. Damage
on the outside knuckle prevents me from wearing my favorite
boots which fit right and make me use my OLD (3 years) boots
that are really too loose.

- Try custom footbeds. Ian doesn't recommend this; he says that
footbeds improve performance but diminish comfort compared to Superfeet
since they're firmer.

Custom footbeds, as you might get from SureFoot (as I did) or
another boot/foot specialty shop will NOT give diminished
comfort compared to Superfeet footbeds. The improvement in
fit will ADD to comfort.

- Try orthopedic footbeds. Apparently there are some things doctors can
do that ski shops aren't allowed to do in terms of shaping. Again, Ian
recommends against.

As I understand it, someone who is licensed to make "orthotics" or
orthotic foot beds can correct some of the mis-shape in you feet,
namely the flatness where custom foot beds only hold your feet to
the shape they are most comfortable with. I've never had true
orthotics in my boots, only in my walking shoes. Again, what I
said about custom foot beds.

- Try a fancy shop with the scanning machine. Internet FAQs make these
sound fairly common, but Russ said that they were only at "super-
specialized" shops for high-performance skiing.

Clearly the shop you went to doesn't have a scanning machine,
otherwise, "Russ" would be extolling its virtues. Right?

AND if boot/foot shops were "super-specialized" for "high-
performance skiing" there wouldn't be so many of them. Right?
There are so many of them because they do a good job of
making skiing comfortable for the large mass of general skiers.

I've found two so far. One is SureFoot at Killington, but be
aware that not all SureFoot stores (it's a chain) are created
equal. And Tahoe Boot 'n Ski Works in South Lake Tahoe, CA.

Now, there are truly "high-end" bootfitters. There is one in
Aspen whose name escapes me and Greg Hoffman at Green Mountain
Orthotics Lab http://www.gmolfoot.com/ who not only makes your
boots fit correctly, he can shape your boots so that you/your
legs align correctly with your skis. GMOL is right at the
mountain at Stratton so that you actually ski with the fitter
as the work progresses. I've had friends who have had Greg
work on their boots but I have not felt the need.

- Something else...

That pretty much covers it. There are the options, see where
you want to go. Monique on rec.skiing.alpine.moderated has
had a fairly lengthy thread on her tales of woe and wails of
toe about her boot fitting episodes. Curiously enough, she
also bought X-Wave (8 I think) boots.

There is a certain amount of work involved in getting boots
to fit right and be comfortable, especially for people with
feet like yours and mine. I'm not satisfied until I
can wear my boots for 8 hours straight and get up the next
morning and do it again.

Help! Ideas?

  #3  
Old January 18th 05, 10:19 PM
Dave Stallard
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Posts: n/a
Default

Jay Levitt wrote:

So the next morning I went out, and while the arch pain was mostly gone,
my toes were still getting numb after an hour or two. Back to the shop.
I didn't feel the boots pressing anywhere except the ankle, so Russ
ground the ankles. Went back out, still getting numb. Came back, and
Russ was gone, so Ian helped me. We tried a few things, and finally, I
asked - is it possible that the boots themselves are the wrong size?
Sure enough, they were too loose; I should really be in a 26. They
won't normally exchange boots from one ASC shop to another, but the
manager was coming in the next morning and could do it. I decided to
take advantage of the opportunity and upgrade to X-Wave 8's since I knew
I'd outgrow the Performas rapidly. At first they were agony, but after
swapping the footbeds for wintergreen Superfeet they were wonderful.


Jay,

One question. Are you middle toes longer than your big toe?

Dave
  #4  
Old January 18th 05, 10:20 PM
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Something doesn't make sense here because it sure sounds like your
boots are be too small.

(US) mens size 10.5 = 28.5 (mondo size)
(US) mens size 11 = 29 (mondo size)

26 (mondo size) = (US) mens size 8

Have a look he
http://www.snowshack.com/skiboot-sizing.html

I wear a (US) size 9 street shoe and a (mondo) size 27 ski boot.

If I were you I'd try a (mondo) size 28.5... if they're too loose find
a narrower fitting boot.

Try measuring your feet yourself. Simply take a metric ruler and
measure the length of your feet. The length of your foot (in
centimetres) equals your boot size. e.g.- 28.5 centimetres = boot size
28.5

  #5  
Old January 18th 05, 10:49 PM
Dave Stallard
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Jay,

I see from your sig that you are in Wellesley. I have a simple
recommendation. Call Bob Smith's Wilderness House in Brookline and ask
for an appointment with Gordon Hay. He is their bootfitter, and he is
excellent. He does bootfitting for local college ski teams (Harvard
and MIT, I believe). His knowledge of anatomy and foot mechanics is
unsurpassed. He also works with a local sports podiatrist, Rick
Cullen, who does podiatry for the Boston Celtics.

Gordon can make you a real custom footbed, for starters. You
shouldn't pay attention to people who tell you not to get a custom
footbed - they're probably telling you that because they can't make
them! A custom footbed will run you $100 or so, but it's worth it. You
also shouldn't pay ANY attention to "best X" awards given out by Ski
Magazine. Ski Magazine can kiss your ass. They are liars whose real
constituency are ski resorts and ski companies, not skiiers.

I have had EXACTLY the same problems you mention - agonizing toe and
arch pain. This was even after Gordon had made me the foot bed. He
told me that the reason was my Morton's toe - the longer middle toe than
big toe. That's why I asked you about it. That not only causes
pronation, but can also cause a neuroma and swelling. That's where the
pain comes in - big time. I bet it's also worse when the weather's
warm, right?

Gordon told me that the underlying condition needed to be resolved by
a podiatrist in my regular shoes, and there were limits to what boot
adjustments alone could do. But he added extra bumps on the footbeds
and blew out a bulge on the sides of my boots, to give the foot more
room. He charged me nothing for this. I've felt better since.
Better balance inside my boots (not weighting the front part of the foot
so much) seems to have helped as well.

Dave




  #7  
Old January 18th 05, 11:15 PM
Jay Levitt
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Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
says...
I see from your sig that you are in Wellesley. I have a simple
recommendation. Call Bob Smith's Wilderness House in Brookline and ask
for an appointment with Gordon Hay. He is their bootfitter, and he is
excellent. He does bootfitting for local college ski teams (Harvard
and MIT, I believe). His knowledge of anatomy and foot mechanics is
unsurpassed. He also works with a local sports podiatrist, Rick
Cullen, who does podiatry for the Boston Celtics.


Cool.. I will check that out. I need to stop back there and return a
pair of gloves, actually - I went in looking for mittens, and the
salesman talked me into gloves because they were "just as warm" and
"more flexible for pole work". Hah. After picking my shattered fingers
back up off the ground and reattaching with snow, I now know I was right
in the first place.


Gordon can make you a real custom footbed, for starters. You
shouldn't pay attention to people who tell you not to get a custom
footbed - they're probably telling you that because they can't make
them! A custom footbed will run you $100 or so, but it's worth it.


They do provide custom footbeds at that shop, so it wasn't a matter of
downplaying their deficiencies; it's just that neither tech really felt
they were right for my problem. Doesn't mean they were right, though!

I bet it's also worse when the weather's warm, right?


Not sure.. at this point I've been skiing 7 days total in my life, and
just 3 with problems. Yesterday was really cold, though, and it didn't
seem any better, so I'm going to say "no".

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | Hi!
Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?
  #9  
Old January 18th 05, 11:18 PM
Harry Weiner
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Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:49:42 -0500, Jay Levitt wrote
this crap:

I'm 33, brand new skier, 5'9", 180 pounds,

I am really frustrated with this. What, if anything, can I do?



www.jennycraig.com






My T-shirt says, "This shirt is the
ultimate power in the universe."
  #10  
Old January 18th 05, 11:23 PM
Jay Levitt
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Posts: n/a
Default

In article , says...
- Try custom footbeds. Ian doesn't recommend this; he says that
footbeds improve performance but diminish comfort compared to Superfeet
since they're firmer.

Custom footbeds, as you might get from SureFoot (as I did) or
another boot/foot specialty shop will NOT give diminished
comfort compared to Superfeet footbeds. The improvement in
fit will ADD to comfort.


That's what I would think, too, and I was surprised.. maybe there are
different types of custom insoles and he was speaking to the ones that
the ASC shops install. Googling here, I did see a post from "Doug" on
3/7/03 that seemed to say Surefoot was useless, though it wasn't clear
why... search Google Groups for "computer-image uncorrected-foot" to
find it.

- Try a fancy shop with the scanning machine. Internet FAQs make these
sound fairly common, but Russ said that they were only at "super-
specialized" shops for high-performance skiing.

Clearly the shop you went to doesn't have a scanning machine,
otherwise, "Russ" would be extolling its virtues. Right?


Precisely... Also, he's been doing this for 30 years, and I get the idea
he doesn't trust newfangled technology. I've seen that in a variety of
trades; people like the old ways of doing things and trusting their
"experience" vs. actual measurement. Me, I want to get a real-time 3D
computer-enhanced holographic image of everything I can.

I've found two so far. One is SureFoot at Killington, but be
aware that not all SureFoot stores (it's a chain) are created
equal.


No problem - Killington is just a few hours away.

Now, there are truly "high-end" bootfitters. There is one in
Aspen whose name escapes me and Greg Hoffman at Green Mountain
Orthotics Lab
http://www.gmolfoot.com/ who not only makes your
boots fit correctly, he can shape your boots so that you/your
legs align correctly with your skis. GMOL is right at the
mountain at Stratton


Wowza. Stratton is 2.5 hours from me. I think it's time for a day
trip. I've heard them mentioned here before, and only in glowing terms.

Thanks for the advice. I'll give GMOL a call tomorrow.

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | Hi!
Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?
 




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