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Trust Ski Manufacturers' Flex Rating
I've had a few people want to flex test some Fischer Carbonlite's I'm
selling, in spite of the fact that Fischer gives a specific flex point. Just curious if anyone has experience with the manufacturer's numbers being off? |
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#2
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Trust Ski Manufacturers' Flex Rating
On Thu, 7 Jan 2010 05:40:55 -0800 (PST)
Jon wrote: I've had a few people want to flex test some Fischer Carbonlite's I'm selling, in spite of the fact that Fischer gives a specific flex point. Just curious if anyone has experience with the manufacturer's numbers being off? You didn't say classical or skate, but yes, I read a comment somewhere to that effect the other day re Fischers and know from my own experience that the tag numbers are often off a bit. That's part of why, for example, Zach Caldwell takes a flex tester on his visits to ski factories and warehouses when picking skis. Another reason is that it's unusual for ski pairs to have matching flexes, although the manufacturing technology has improved over the years. The person measuring them also has to know what they are doing re the brand of ski, since Carbonlite classics (and skates?) have, or have had, residual camber by design that other skis don't. If you're talking about classical skis, the other thing that's very important (and another thing Zach measures) is the "finish," or closing flex, i.e., how much pressure it takes to go from a one-leg full-footed ride to a firm push off from the ball of the foot. Kris Freeman, for example, exerts a whole lot more force downward than most of us do, and since he skis relatively upright, he will likely exert more force down than another racer with a more forward, classical Norwegian stance (Odd-Bjorn Hjelmeset comes to mind). This is why in general comparisons between the needs of citizen skiers and what elite racers use, is dicey at best. And even more so as we age, with muscle power available seeming to decrease, meaning the need for a relatively or absolutely softer ski (this is something I've found very few people selling skis understand, especially younger ones). The closing flex can be gauged by feel on a board - full foot, paper slides; ball of foot it doesn't - but more accurately it's measured with a press and digital meter from the 0.2mm to 0.1mm closure points, at 8cm behind the balance point (if I've got those numbers right). Gene |
#3
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Trust Ski Manufacturers' Flex Rating
Gene:
Thanks for the detailed response. The carbonlites in question are classic's. Just curious, what is "residual camber? Jon On Jan 7, 2:15*pm, wrote: On Thu, 7 Jan 2010 05:40:55 -0800 (PST) Jon wrote: I've had a few people want to flex test some Fischer Carbonlite's I'm selling, in spite of the fact that Fischer gives a specific flex point. Just curious if anyone has experience with the manufacturer's numbers being off? You didn't say classical or skate, but yes, I read a comment somewhere to that effect the other day re Fischers and know from my own experience that the tag numbers are often off a bit. *That's part of why, for example, Zach Caldwell takes a flex tester on his visits to ski factories and warehouses when picking skis. *Another reason is that it's unusual for ski pairs to have matching flexes, although the manufacturing technology has improved over the years. The person measuring them also has to know what they are doing re the brand of ski, since Carbonlite classics (and skates?) have, or have had, residual camber by design that other skis don't. * If you're talking about classical skis, the other thing that's very important (and another thing Zach measures) is the "finish," or closing flex, i.e., how much pressure it takes to go from a one-leg full-footed ride to a firm push off from the ball of the foot. *Kris Freeman, for example, exerts a whole lot more force downward than most of us do, and since he skis relatively upright, he will likely exert more force down than another racer with a more forward, classical Norwegian stance (Odd-Bjorn Hjelmeset comes to mind). *This is why in general comparisons between the needs of citizen skiers and what elite racers use, is dicey at best. *And even more so as we age, with muscle power available seeming to decrease, meaning the need for a relatively or absolutely softer ski (this is something I've found very few people selling skis understand, especially younger ones). The closing flex can be gauged by feel on a board - full foot, paper slides; ball of foot it doesn't - but more accurately it's measured with a press and digital meter from the 0.2mm to 0.1mm closure points, at 8cm behind the balance point (if I've got those numbers right). Gene |
#4
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Trust Ski Manufacturers' Flex Rating
Jon wrote:
Thanks for the detailed response. The carbonlites in question are classic's. Warm or cold? Just curious, what is "residual camber? My understanding(!) is that it's open camber in front of the kick zone when the ski is fully weighted, hence residual. Thought that seems paradoxical, it's the way Fischer built the Carbonlites and I think even some of the regular RCS classics, their 812 construction types (a rep told me this year to look for a pair of colds in my flex range with the longest pocket and most residual camber). In terms of skiing, I think it fits best with someone who pushes off the ball of the foot, vs. a more full or mid-foot push off, and perhaps means the need for a stronger kick at any flex number (with a Fischer ski fullly weighted - down to 0.1mm - the ski will still be slightly open from the foot forward). This idea of 'left-over' camber is definitely not traditional and initially some shops were sending them back. I've heard that this year's batch of Carbonlites has less residual camber. Gene On Jan 7, 2:15*pm, wrote: On Thu, 7 Jan 2010 05:40:55 -0800 (PST) Jon wrote: I've had a few people want to flex test some Fischer Carbonlite's I'm selling, in spite of the fact that Fischer gives a specific flex point. Just curious if anyone has experience with the manufacturer's numbers being off? You didn't say classical or skate, but yes, I read a comment somewhere to that effect the other day re Fischers and know from my own experience that the tag numbers are often off a bit. *That's part of why, for example, Zach Caldwell takes a flex tester on his visits to ski factories and warehouses when picking skis. *Another reason is that it's unusual for ski pairs to have matching flexes, although the manufacturing technology has improved over the years. The person measuring them also has to know what they are doing re the brand of ski, since Carbonlite classics (and skates?) have, or have had, residual camber by design that other skis don't. * If you're talking about classical skis, the other thing that's very important (and another thing Zach measures) is the "finish," or closing flex, i.e., how much pressure it takes to go from a one-leg full-footed ride to a firm push off from the ball of the foot. *Kris Freeman, for example, exerts a whole lot more force downward than most of us do, and since he skis relatively upright, he will likely exert more force down than another racer with a more forward, classical Norwegian stance (Odd-Bjorn Hjelmeset comes to mind). *This is why in general comparisons between the needs of citizen skiers and what elite racers use, is dicey at best. *And even more so as we age, with muscle power available seeming to decrease, meaning the need for a relatively or absolutely softer ski (this is something I've found very few people selling skis understand, especially younger ones). The closing flex can be gauged by feel on a board - full foot, paper slides; ball of foot it doesn't - but more accurately it's measured with a press and digital meter from the 0.2mm to 0.1mm closure points, at 8cm behind the balance point (if I've got those numbers right). Gene |
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Trust Ski Manufacturers' Flex Rating
On Jan 12, 12:33*pm, wrote:
To add a bit more information, I'm told the (tear-off)label#s (above the binding) are actually close with this year's batch, Hi there, is there an interpretation guide to the label numbers? I read it somewhere here on RSN but can't find it now. I have a 2010 Carbonlite Classic plus with 'N13891202 Medium' and the bar codes are '9 002971 223823'. My dealer (very reputable) told me that these close at 41-43kg, right in my range. Any takers? |
#7
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Trust Ski Manufacturers' Flex Rating
The sticker you're looking for, assuming it wasn't torn off, is the
long thin one laying aside the main sticker that reads like this: FA:39,98 HR:0,42 I don't know what all those refer to, but the 39 in this case refers to Fischer's flex measure (skier half-weight 8cm back of balance point?). While a label scanner and the right software may pick up more info, you'd probably have talk to a dealer or Fischer rep to get specifics. Btw, the skis I took this off of were bench tested at ~40.5 (would be a bit more with bindings). But to interpret numbers like that it's also important to look at how the skis close, both in front of the foot (where, how much residual camber) and under foot (double pole vs. striding position), as well as how much pressure it takes to go from 0.2mm to 0.1mm, i.e., what it takes to close them to the equivalent of about two layers of hard wax. Skis with the same flex numbers can have very different characteristics on a variety of dimensions. And the same skis will feel different to different skiers, depending on factors like age, technique, strength and ski style. Gene On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 05:13:34 -0800 (PST) Spunout wrote: On Jan 12, 12:33*pm, wrote: To add a bit more information, I'm told the (tear-off)label#s (above the binding) are actually close with this year's batch, Hi there, is there an interpretation guide to the label numbers? I read it somewhere here on RSN but can't find it now. I have a 2010 Carbonlite Classic plus with 'N13891202 Medium' and the bar codes are '9 002971 223823'. My dealer (very reputable) told me that these close at 41-43kg, right in my range. Any takers? |
#8
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Trust Ski Manufacturers' Flex Rating
Hi Gene,
The Fischer numbers are the reverse of what you described. FA is basically the force to totally compress the ski flat, in this case, a 'flex' of 39.98 kg. That is very close to the 40.5 kg that you got from your bench test. HR is half weight height. The height of the camber when the skier's weight is evenly distributed on both skis. Your example is 0.42 mm As you mentioned, the skis come to the dealer with two bar code stickers. Usually the dealer removes the one sticker when it is sold, as it is a temporary sticker. Usually you can scan the remaining sticker to get the numbers, but not always. In any case, as Gene points out, the manufacturer's numbers are just used by the dealers to narrow down the available skis that might fit you, when you go to purchase a ski. Being fitted on a ski bench is much more important, as the 2 flex values are only 2 points in the movement of a ski. What goes on in between the half weight position and the fully closed position is what determines how a ski feels. Of course, how the ski feels to you on snow is the most important aspect of all. Hope this helps and you are enjoying your new skis. Paul Haltvick Bay Design and Build - LLC Engineering, Construction Services FSx - Fischer / Swix Racing wrote in message ... The sticker you're looking for, assuming it wasn't torn off, is the long thin one laying aside the main sticker that reads like this: FA:39,98 HR:0,42 I don't know what all those refer to, but the 39 in this case refers to Fischer's flex measure (skier half-weight 8cm back of balance point?). While a label scanner and the right software may pick up more info, you'd probably have talk to a dealer or Fischer rep to get specifics. Btw, the skis I took this off of were bench tested at ~40.5 (would be a bit more with bindings). But to interpret numbers like that it's also important to look at how the skis close, both in front of the foot (where, how much residual camber) and under foot (double pole vs. striding position), as well as how much pressure it takes to go from 0.2mm to 0.1mm, i.e., what it takes to close them to the equivalent of about two layers of hard wax. Skis with the same flex numbers can have very different characteristics on a variety of dimensions. And the same skis will feel different to different skiers, depending on factors like age, technique, strength and ski style. Gene On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 05:13:34 -0800 (PST) Spunout wrote: On Jan 12, 12:33 pm, wrote: To add a bit more information, I'm told the (tear-off)label#s (above the binding) are actually close with this year's batch, Hi there, is there an interpretation guide to the label numbers? I read it somewhere here on RSN but can't find it now. I have a 2010 Carbonlite Classic plus with 'N13891202 Medium' and the bar codes are '9 002971 223823'. My dealer (very reputable) told me that these close at 41-43kg, right in my range. Any takers? |
#9
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Trust Ski Manufacturers' Flex Rating
Paul, thanks for the correction and explanation. I can add from
recent experience to your comment about the key being between half weight and closed. I quickly found that the (cold) pair I described stride ok but seriously drag double poling. With DP, the skier's weight is what, maybe 75%, and focused several cm farther back than half weight flex is typically taken? The ok stride told me that residual camber was compensating in good part for the drag under foot, while the latter suggested these skis collapse quickly under foot (behind the ball) with added weight. Which leaves the question, how can 0.42mm, which is 8-9 standard wax layers, be insufficient? There seem to be at least two answers. First, skis don't necessarily close in an even manner across the entire kick zone (I had a pair of Crowns where just squeezing I could see the front 5+ cm closed right off, which explained the drag). Second, the idea is to match that 0.42mm with the skier's half weight (with adjustment for skier's preferences). In my case, at 80kg, the actual measurement seems to be well less than .42, since I can't use more than about 6 layers + a thin binder in front of the ball of the foot before seeing drag. That's a sign that the ski is too soft to be used as a universal cold ski. Which is the point where one goes back to the seller. Gene On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 13:15:26 -0600 "Norski" wrote: Hi Gene, The Fischer numbers are the reverse of what you described. FA is basically the force to totally compress the ski flat, in this case, a 'flex' of 39.98 kg. That is very close to the 40.5 kg that you got from your bench test. HR is half weight height. The height of the camber when the skier's weight is evenly distributed on both skis. Your example is 0.42 mm As you mentioned, the skis come to the dealer with two bar code stickers. Usually the dealer removes the one sticker when it is sold, as it is a temporary sticker. Usually you can scan the remaining sticker to get the numbers, but not always. In any case, as Gene points out, the manufacturer's numbers are just used by the dealers to narrow down the available skis that might fit you, when you go to purchase a ski. Being fitted on a ski bench is much more important, as the 2 flex values are only 2 points in the movement of a ski. What goes on in between the half weight position and the fully closed position is what determines how a ski feels. Of course, how the ski feels to you on snow is the most important aspect of all. Hope this helps and you are enjoying your new skis. Paul Haltvick Bay Design and Build - LLC Engineering, Construction Services FSx - Fischer / Swix Racing wrote in message ... The sticker you're looking for, assuming it wasn't torn off, is the long thin one laying aside the main sticker that reads like this: FA:39,98 HR:0,42 I don't know what all those refer to, but the 39 in this case refers to Fischer's flex measure (skier half-weight 8cm back of balance point?). While a label scanner and the right software may pick up more info, you'd probably have talk to a dealer or Fischer rep to get specifics. Btw, the skis I took this off of were bench tested at ~40.5 (would be a bit more with bindings). But to interpret numbers like that it's also important to look at how the skis close, both in front of the foot (where, how much residual camber) and under foot (double pole vs. striding position), as well as how much pressure it takes to go from 0.2mm to 0.1mm, i.e., what it takes to close them to the equivalent of about two layers of hard wax. Skis with the same flex numbers can have very different characteristics on a variety of dimensions. And the same skis will feel different to different skiers, depending on factors like age, technique, strength and ski style. Gene On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 05:13:34 -0800 (PST) Spunout wrote: On Jan 12, 12:33 pm, wrote: To add a bit more information, I'm told the (tear-off)label#s (above the binding) are actually close with this year's batch, Hi there, is there an interpretation guide to the label numbers? I read it somewhere here on RSN but can't find it now. I have a 2010 Carbonlite Classic plus with 'N13891202 Medium' and the bar codes are '9 002971 223823'. My dealer (very reputable) told me that these close at 41-43kg, right in my range. Any takers? |
#10
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Trust Ski Manufacturers' Flex Rating
In my case, at 80kg, the actual measurement seems
to be well less than .42, since I can't use more than about 6 layers + a thin binder in front of the ball of the foot before seeing drag. That's a sign that the ski is too soft to be used as a universal cold ski. *Which is the point where one goes back to the seller. FWIW, I've found that 50% is the softest RCS one might ski (If you were a 'shuffler'). I wanted to make sure that my current skis are about 60% of weight, and this range seems to be sufficient to ski 'athletically', use a lot of wax and still get some glide. Pocket distribution is so important (and tough to test), layers need to be built up according to how the camber closes. |
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