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#11
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#12
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
In article , David Off wrote: bbense+rec.skiing.backcountry.Dec.27.03@telemark. slac.stanford.edu wrote: There's a lot of engineering and standards in todays's Alpine bindings that just aren't there in ANY AT binding[1]. The Naxo and Sk'Alp 8007, being based on Alpine bindings are probably as safe. _ What would be really interesting would be to put both alpine boots and several different AT boots in those bindings and run them through a bench tester. If they all release at the same force, I would be suprised. Pleasantly surprised.... _ That's what really made the great advance in alpine bindings. Now you can pretty much put any alpine boot of the same sole length in a binding and get exactly the same release values from a bench tester. BTW, I would really like to be wrong about this, I would love it if some one popped up and said "Here's the test and the data..., you're full of s####" _ Booker C. Bense -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBP/BP5WTWTAjn5N/lAQFH5AQAn9chq1Vzh6rvhdHetRdAOnqGm9Vv3aWB R9gmO7lb91jbw92eCx/fUhUe8REwgnKj2mFtFyL5bXzxz/6YmMQoC25X6QP22vly bu/sXG/faRLgLo0Auz9wyeF2wqyHBV7ikOr8wAaXBbdTv6e5eYVuwrPxD CnO/qQh fs3YS4g2AMI= =gWUL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
#13
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This is all very interesting, but in my experience, I don't ski as
aggressively in the backcountry as I do at the resorts. For one thing, there is no ski-patrol around to carry your sorry butt off the mountain if you get injured, so most of us in my circles are a LOT more careful in the backcountry. My second point is this: I have had several releases with my silvrettas, with zero injury or even stress on the joints which would cause me concern. I am 43, so those joints aren't as elastic as they once were. I think you are spending too much mental energy worrying about a purely twisting release, I mean, how often do you expect to encounter such a thing as you tumble down the side of a mountain? Where, exactly, are you intending to use your AT gear? I experienced a number of twisting pressures on knees, ankles and hips while learning to tele, the ski goes one way, you go another, the bindings are not designed to release, this seems much more problematic to me than an AT binding which releases at the heel in a twisting fall, one of the many reasons that I am very willing to take the weight hit (measured in a few ounces these days when comparing gear designed for more than just trail touring) of AT over Tele. Cheers, happy new-year, I'm going to go carve up some of the fresh powder that is falling, damn buddy hasn't shown up yet so I thought I'd surf the newsgroup... Vince "John Mason" wrote in message ... "Frank Wiles" wrote in message ... "John Mason" wrote in message ... I saw on the Silvretta website that they rotate out at the back but I am not convinced that this is of much use in the situation where the body is rotating purely about the heel (much less useful compared to a toe release binding). Do you own a pair John? I've got a couple pair of silvrettas and a pair of tourlites and they release just fine when a twisting motion is applied. I rent silvrettas. The reason is that there is so much more force required to break open the binding at the heel than at the toe - measuring my foot I measure five times the distance from the toe to the ball of my foot compared to the heel. This will roughly equate to five times the force needed to hold the foot safely in position at the heel compared to at the toe. Bad science! A twisting force is a twisting force. Indeed, if the twisting force is acting from the leg's center, it would be acting at a greater distance (and take more leverage) to pop out at the toe than it would to pop out the heel, would it not?. I just tried the experiment on my living room floor and they both (standard downhill binding & silvretta) take about the same force when set @ 7 to pop out. I do not make any claim to do proper science, this is only theory and common sense. I am looking for evidence and information to support my thinking. Your point is just the point I am making. It is because it takes so much more force at the toe - perhaps five times the force compared to the heel to release the foot in a twisting fall that I cannot believe that the heel release can provide the same protection as the toe yet hold the heel sufficiently firmly to prevent a pre-release. Try standing with the weight on your heel and rotate the body about the lower leg's axis and see if the Silvretta pops out. I would be surprised if you can get them to release without also pushing to the side. For what it's worth, I injured my ankle last year in a twisting fall using a pair of standard downhill bindings. Never had a problem with the silvrettas. Many accidents occur in perfectly set up bindings and the accidents are caused by applying forces to the knee or elsewhere in a way that the bindings cannot give protection, for more info see: http://www.ski-injury.com/knee.htm#M...MENT%20SPRAINS I believe that the binding setting at the heel that is required to allow the heel to brake away when it needs to will be so low that the binding will pre-release extremely easily. Hmm, mine don't. Are you saying your's do, or do you know someone who complains of this problem? I am saying, as implied above that if you don't pre-release then you are not getting the same protection from a rotating injury that a toe release will give. This is just for a pure rotating fall such that might cause a spiral fracture of the tibia or a trashing of the ACL. Where there is some sideward motion too I suspect the rear releasable binding gives adequate protection. I believe you can only protect the leg properly and at the same time prevent a binding pre-release by using a toe release binding. Based upon what? Based on all the above. What prompted this request for more info is that I know someone who had a spiral fracture with Silvrettas. Since toe release bindings on alpine skis were adopted in the 1970s I have seen the incidence of "legs in plaster" go from very high down to insignificantly low. A 90% reduction is reported of mainly tibia injuries in Sports Med 1999 Jul;28(1):35-48 (ISSN: 0112-1642). |
#14
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"John Mason" wrote in message ...
Tele, x-country and silvretta type ski touring bindings all appear to be fixed at the toe and will not allow the foot to release from the toe. I remember the terrible number of downhill skiers who suffered broken legs before toe release safety bindings were invented. Are these bindings not dangerous? If not why do downhill skiers bother with toe release bindings? The traditional explanation is that free heelers never went that fast compared to alpine skiers. That does seem to be changing. In my case I'm pretty deliberate on the resort groomers, but that raises another safety issue. It seems that an increasing number of skiers/boarders are inclined to regard someone slower downhill as a potted plant...who ever hurt themselves cutting too close to a ficus? Also, I suspect that having the heel free results in fewer falling situations where the ski is generating maximum twisting force by leveraging at a perfect right angle to the leg. John Reece |
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