Tuning question

my 4-5 year old K2 axis skis let me down this weekend , I've been tuning my
own skis but after the last tuning they feel like they lost a lot of their
edge grip . I've kept them beveled same as factory specs at 1 at the base
and 1 at the edge . I'm thinking of going a .5 on the base and start with 2
then possibly up to a 3 on the edge . I ski mostly on the Northeast . I want
to get better grip on ice without making the ski hooky or edgy but still be
able to slide around the moguls , any input appreciated .
Ron

On Feb 13, 6:56 am, "Ron - NY" wrote:
my 4-5 year old K2 axis skis let me down this weekend , I've been tuning my
own skis but after the last tuning they feel like they lost a lot of their
edge grip . I've kept them beveled same as factory specs at 1 at the base
and 1 at the edge . I'm thinking of going a .5 on the base and start with 2
then possibly up to a 3 on the edge . I ski mostly on the Northeast . I want
to get better grip on ice without making the ski hooky or edgy but still be
able to slide around the moguls , any input appreciated .
Ron

Base at 1 degree, side at 3 (2 at a min). Maybe you need a base grind
too? Then, re-establish the base edge and take the side to 2 or 3.
--
Marty

I figured I would deftly go from a 1 to a 2 on the sides and then I can go
to a 3 from there down the road if necessary . But you think better to leave
the base at 1 than a .5 ? I do a stone grind once a season , but doesn't
that flatten out the base edges to a 0 ? maybe after the stone grind i'll
start with a .5 then try a 1 if they feel hooky . If I'm understanding
things correctly , the more acute (3) the edge bevel is the better it will
grip 'once' on edge . The flatter the bases are the quicker they will engage
, the higher the angle the more delay before they engage . I will confess I
skipped the de-tuning last time but didn't think that was enough to cause my
problems . Can a ski just lose it's ability to keep an edge after a while ?
Is it possible to keep an edge as sharp as the factory does it ? I'm not
sure I like the way the machines do it and definitely like doing it myself ,
right now I am using the 'beast' tools ( base & edge ) with all the
goodies,file,good diamond stones,gummy stone ,brushes ,hot waxing etc .


"Marty" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 13, 6:56 am, "Ron - NY" wrote:
my 4-5 year old K2 axis skis let me down this weekend , I've been tuning
my
own skis but after the last tuning they feel like they lost a lot of
their
edge grip . I've kept them beveled same as factory specs at 1 at the base
and 1 at the edge . I'm thinking of going a .5 on the base and start with
2
then possibly up to a 3 on the edge . I ski mostly on the Northeast . I
want
to get better grip on ice without making the ski hooky or edgy but still
be
able to slide around the moguls , any input appreciated .
Ron

Base at 1 degree, side at 3 (2 at a min). Maybe you need a base grind
too? Then, re-establish the base edge and take the side to 2 or 3.
--
Marty

Ron - NY wrote:

Can a ski just lose it's ability to keep an edge after a while ?

If the torsional stiffness breaks down, the ski will "wash out" even if
the edges are sharp. So it's not just a matter of whether the edges
are sharp, the ski has to remain torsionally stiff or the edges won't
hold even if they are sharp.

If sharp edges were all that were necessary to hold on Eastern Firm (TM)
we could just buy our skis at Wal-Mart and sharpen the dickens out of them.

I've experienced this degradation in edge hold that you describe, but
I'm not sure if it's due to diminishing edge sharpness, diminishing
torsional stiffness, or just some psychological phenomenon where my
desire for new skis is manifesting itself as a perception that my skis
aren't as good as they used to be. Probably a combination of all three.

//Walt

On Feb 13, 10:10 am, "Ron - NY" wrote:
I figured I would deftly go from a 1 to a 2 on the sides and then I can go
to a 3 from there down the road if necessary . But you think better to leave
the base at 1 than a .5 ? I do a stone grind once a season , but doesn't
that flatten out the base edges to a 0 ? maybe after the stone grind i'll
start with a .5 then try a 1 if they feel hooky . If I'm understanding
things correctly , the more acute (3) the edge bevel is the better it will
grip 'once' on edge . The flatter the bases are the quicker they will engage
, the higher the angle the more delay before they engage . I will confess I
skipped the de-tuning last time but didn't think that was enough to cause my
problems . Can a ski just lose it's ability to keep an edge after a while ?
Is it possible to keep an edge as sharp as the factory does it ? I'm not
sure I like the way the machines do it and definitely like doing it myself ,
right now I am using the 'beast' tools ( base & edge ) with all the
goodies,file,good diamond stones,gummy stone ,brushes ,hot waxing etc .

I use the beast tool too. Nice tools and not too expensive compared
to (for example) SVST.

It seems that you have a perfect understanding of edge beveling. You
could start with a base edge of .5 and see how that works. You can
always remove more.

I have been told to sharpen modern shaped skis from tip to tail and
NOT to de-tune. If your edges are tuned well and they feel hooky, it
may be an issue with boot alignment.

Walt has a good point too in that maybe the ski is just starting to
lose it's "snap".

Time for new skis?
--
Marty

Walt wrote:
Ron - NY wrote:

Can a ski just lose it's ability to keep an edge after a while ?

If the torsional stiffness breaks down, the ski will "wash out" even if
the edges are sharp. So it's not just a matter of whether the edges
are sharp, the ski has to remain torsionally stiff or the edges won't
hold even if they are sharp.

If sharp edges were all that were necessary to hold on Eastern Firm (TM)
we could just buy our skis at Wal-Mart and sharpen the dickens out of them.

I've experienced this degradation in edge hold that you describe, but
I'm not sure if it's due to diminishing edge sharpness, diminishing
torsional stiffness, or just some psychological phenomenon where my
desire for new skis is manifesting itself as a perception that my skis
aren't as good as they used to be. Probably a combination of all three.

//Walt




A Nordica rep told me that skis degrade in torsional stiffness after a
couple of years of use. (Use means 70-90 ski days a year.)

Good luck, jimbo

well , I brought them in to my local shop and spoke to the guy who does
tuning . I also spoke to the guy at the "Race Place" where I bought all my
tuning equipment . After speaking to the guy at my local shop , he agreed
the edges seemed rounded out . I have to admit I think I got carried away
with the file last time I tuned . When they say less is more they are right
.. I'm also going to start using the magic marker trick . I'm getting them
stone ground and starting again . Both places seemed to think I should leave
the base at a 1 degree angle and not go to a .5 . I'm going from a 1 to a 2
on the sides though and see if I notice a difference , if I still need more
edge after this I'll go to a 3 . As far as detuning , I think 1 light stroke
across the edge with a gummy stone is probably a good idea , but I'm going
very light . I'm not quite sure I still understand the principle behind
de-tuning the tips and tails so I'm not doing any of that . But one question
I forgot to ask was , does it make any sense to keep a dedicated left &
right ski all the time ? I usually do , but wanted to see what other thought
..
Ron

"Marty" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 13, 10:10 am, "Ron - NY" wrote:
I figured I would deftly go from a 1 to a 2 on the sides and then I can
go
to a 3 from there down the road if necessary . But you think better to
leave
the base at 1 than a .5 ? I do a stone grind once a season , but doesn't
that flatten out the base edges to a 0 ? maybe after the stone grind i'll
start with a .5 then try a 1 if they feel hooky . If I'm understanding
things correctly , the more acute (3) the edge bevel is the better it
will
grip 'once' on edge . The flatter the bases are the quicker they will
engage
, the higher the angle the more delay before they engage . I will confess
I
skipped the de-tuning last time but didn't think that was enough to cause
my
problems . Can a ski just lose it's ability to keep an edge after a while
?
Is it possible to keep an edge as sharp as the factory does it ? I'm not
sure I like the way the machines do it and definitely like doing it
myself ,
right now I am using the 'beast' tools ( base & edge ) with all the
goodies,file,good diamond stones,gummy stone ,brushes ,hot waxing etc .

I use the beast tool too. Nice tools and not too expensive compared
to (for example) SVST.

It seems that you have a perfect understanding of edge beveling. You
could start with a base edge of .5 and see how that works. You can
always remove more.

I have been told to sharpen modern shaped skis from tip to tail and
NOT to de-tune. If your edges are tuned well and they feel hooky, it
may be an issue with boot alignment.

Walt has a good point too in that maybe the ski is just starting to
lose it's "snap".

Time for new skis?
--
Marty

Ron - NY wrote:

I'm not quite sure I still understand the principle behind
de-tuning the tips and tails so I'm not doing any of that .

Sharp tips & tails can make the ski "grabby" and you can catch an edge.
Well, that's the idea anyway. If you're sloppy with your technique,
this can be a problem. While I'm hardly a paragon of precision, it's
not a problem for me, so I leave 'em sharp.


But one question
I forgot to ask was , does it make any sense to keep a dedicated left &
right ski all the time ? I usually do , but wanted to see what other thought

The inside edges get more use/abuse than the outside edges, so they
become duller faster. I generally ski two days with the left ski on the
left foot, then switch them out for the next two days to take advantage
of the sharper edges. Then it's time for another tune. If you ski on
soft stuff, this regimen is unnecessary.

//Walt



.
Ron

"Marty" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 13, 10:10 am, "Ron - NY" wrote:
I figured I would deftly go from a 1 to a 2 on the sides and then I can
go
to a 3 from there down the road if necessary . But you think better to
leave
the base at 1 than a .5 ? I do a stone grind once a season , but doesn't
that flatten out the base edges to a 0 ? maybe after the stone grind i'll
start with a .5 then try a 1 if they feel hooky . If I'm understanding
things correctly , the more acute (3) the edge bevel is the better it
will
grip 'once' on edge . The flatter the bases are the quicker they will
engage
, the higher the angle the more delay before they engage . I will confess
I
skipped the de-tuning last time but didn't think that was enough to cause
my
problems . Can a ski just lose it's ability to keep an edge after a while
?
Is it possible to keep an edge as sharp as the factory does it ? I'm not
sure I like the way the machines do it and definitely like doing it
myself ,
right now I am using the 'beast' tools ( base & edge ) with all the
goodies,file,good diamond stones,gummy stone ,brushes ,hot waxing etc .
I use the beast tool too. Nice tools and not too expensive compared
to (for example) SVST.

It seems that you have a perfect understanding of edge beveling. You
could start with a base edge of .5 and see how that works. You can
always remove more.

I have been told to sharpen modern shaped skis from tip to tail and
NOT to de-tune. If your edges are tuned well and they feel hooky, it
may be an issue with boot alignment.

Walt has a good point too in that maybe the ski is just starting to
lose it's "snap".

Time for new skis?
--
Marty

Hmmm , interesting , I would have thought for sure the outside edges would
wear quicker than the inside . I'm going to try your alternating idea .
Never really seemed to have the problem of the skis feeling hooky , BUT I
have always had the problem of the skis feeling wobbly side to side on
straightaways but always thought that was inherent in parabolic skis .
Ron

"Walt" wrote in message
...
Ron - NY wrote:

I'm not quite sure I still understand the principle behind de-tuning the
tips and tails so I'm not doing any of that .

Sharp tips & tails can make the ski "grabby" and you can catch an edge.
Well, that's the idea anyway. If you're sloppy with your technique, this
can be a problem. While I'm hardly a paragon of precision, it's not a
problem for me, so I leave 'em sharp.


But one question I forgot to ask was , does it make any sense to keep a
dedicated left & right ski all the time ? I usually do , but wanted to
see what other thought

The inside edges get more use/abuse than the outside edges, so they become
duller faster. I generally ski two days with the left ski on the left
foot, then switch them out for the next two days to take advantage of the
sharper edges. Then it's time for another tune. If you ski on soft
stuff, this regimen is unnecessary.

//Walt



.
Ron

"Marty" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 13, 10:10 am, "Ron - NY" wrote:
I figured I would deftly go from a 1 to a 2 on the sides and then I
can go
to a 3 from there down the road if necessary . But you think better to
leave
the base at 1 than a .5 ? I do a stone grind once a season , but
doesn't
that flatten out the base edges to a 0 ? maybe after the stone grind
i'll
start with a .5 then try a 1 if they feel hooky . If I'm understanding
things correctly , the more acute (3) the edge bevel is the better it
will
grip 'once' on edge . The flatter the bases are the quicker they will
engage
, the higher the angle the more delay before they engage . I will
confess I
skipped the de-tuning last time but didn't think that was enough to
cause my
problems . Can a ski just lose it's ability to keep an edge after a
while ?
Is it possible to keep an edge as sharp as the factory does it ? I'm
not
sure I like the way the machines do it and definitely like doing it
myself ,
right now I am using the 'beast' tools ( base & edge ) with all the
goodies,file,good diamond stones,gummy stone ,brushes ,hot waxing etc .
I use the beast tool too. Nice tools and not too expensive compared
to (for example) SVST.

It seems that you have a perfect understanding of edge beveling. You
could start with a base edge of .5 and see how that works. You can
always remove more.

I have been told to sharpen modern shaped skis from tip to tail and
NOT to de-tune. If your edges are tuned well and they feel hooky, it
may be an issue with boot alignment.

Walt has a good point too in that maybe the ski is just starting to
lose it's "snap".

Time for new skis?
--
Marty

Walt wrote:
Ron - NY wrote:

I'm not quite sure I still understand the principle behind de-tuning
the tips and tails so I'm not doing any of that .

Sharp tips & tails can make the ski "grabby" and you can catch an edge.
Well, that's the idea anyway. If you're sloppy with your technique,
this can be a problem. While I'm hardly a paragon of precision, it's
not a problem for me, so I leave 'em sharp.

Something I'm a little more familiar with. Skiing

I have never skied a "grabby" ski since they got wider, shorter
and have more side cut. I always used to dull 3" from the curve
of the tip and 2" from the tail. This on OldStraightSkis(tm). I
tried on several occasions on several OSS's to not do this and'
always had trouble. Found a rock beside the trail to dull
the skis with.

On several occasions as an ambassador at K-mart, I had someone
talk to me about having seemingly no control at all over their new
skis. They had bought them at a city ski shop where the help may
or may not have known anything about skis and skiing. The SOP in
those days was to "properly" tune a customer's skis before they
went out the door. With these particular people, this wasn't done.

I also used to carry a Swiss Army Knife with a file blade. This
was just enough to make the skis dull in the right places and
I was hailed as a hero.

Today, your best ride will be with the factory tune that comes on
your skis. Try to make that last as long as possible and note that
the tips and tails have not been dulled. Check with your local
shop as to whether or not they follow manufacturer's guidelines
for tuning, and if you do it yourself, familiarize yourself with
these guidelines. Almost never, dull the tips and tails.

A friend was having trouble with his skis right after a tune.
Checked and found the tips (but not tails) dulled. Took 'em
back and had the tune redone at no additional cost. Back
to factory tune specs and good response of the skis.


But one question I forgot to ask was , does it make any sense to keep
a dedicated left & right ski all the time ? I usually do , but wanted
to see what other thought

The inside edges get more use/abuse than the outside edges, so they
become duller faster. I generally ski two days with the left ski on the
left foot, then switch them out for the next two days to take advantage
of the sharper edges. Then it's time for another tune. If you ski on
soft stuff, this regimen is unnecessary.

I just don't pay any attention as to which ski is left or right.
I believe this give me equal wear on both sets of edges. Probably
does what your method does in a little less compulsive way.

//Walt



.
Ron

"Marty" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 13, 10:10 am, "Ron - NY" wrote:
I figured I would deftly go from a 1 to a 2 on the sides and then I
can go
to a 3 from there down the road if necessary . But you think better
to leave
the base at 1 than a .5 ? I do a stone grind once a season , but
doesn't
that flatten out the base edges to a 0 ? maybe after the stone grind
i'll
start with a .5 then try a 1 if they feel hooky . If I'm understanding
things correctly , the more acute (3) the edge bevel is the better
it will
grip 'once' on edge . The flatter the bases are the quicker they
will engage
, the higher the angle the more delay before they engage . I will
confess I
skipped the de-tuning last time but didn't think that was enough to
cause my
problems . Can a ski just lose it's ability to keep an edge after a
while ?
Is it possible to keep an edge as sharp as the factory does it ? I'm
not
sure I like the way the machines do it and definitely like doing it
myself ,
right now I am using the 'beast' tools ( base & edge ) with all the
goodies,file,good diamond stones,gummy stone ,brushes ,hot waxing etc .
I use the beast tool too. Nice tools and not too expensive compared
to (for example) SVST.

It seems that you have a perfect understanding of edge beveling. You
could start with a base edge of .5 and see how that works. You can
always remove more.

I have been told to sharpen modern shaped skis from tip to tail and
NOT to de-tune. If your edges are tuned well and they feel hooky, it
may be an issue with boot alignment.

Walt has a good point too in that maybe the ski is just starting to
lose it's "snap".

Time for new skis?
--
Marty