"Your Responsibility Code" Interpretation...Ugh

"ant" wrote in message
...
Walt wrote:
Marty wrote:

Look at #4:

- Whenever starting downhill or merging into a trail, look uphill and
yield to others.

The "Code" is better than I thought.

To me, trail is the same as line. #1 is at fault.

I think you'll find that you're in the minority with that
interpretation.

My oath! And it's scary that there are people on the hill who can read those
very clear rules, and from them say that skiier 1 was at fault!

Person uphill MUST avoid the person downhill/ahead of them. The overtaker
MUST avoid the person they are overtaking. The skiier MUST be in control to be
able to stop or avoid hitting things/people.

trail and line are totally different. Once you start getting into definitions
of line, you hit so many problems. For instance, boarders and skiiers see
"line" totally differently. And who is to say a line is a line? A beginner
carefully turning is quite different from a racer, or an intermediate.

And by the proposed definition, I should make sure to randomize my turns so the
overtaking skier cannot determine my "line", thereby making me responsible for
him running into me.

Bob F

Bob F wrote:

And by the proposed definition, I should make sure to randomize my
turns so the overtaking skier cannot determine my "line", thereby
making me responsible for him running into me.

That's pretty-much what it boils down to.

Kids wouldn't be allowed to ski ever, if "line" became a valid definition.

Makes it sound like a commercial swimming pool, with roped-off lanes.


--
ant
Don't try to email me!
I'm using the latest spammer/scammer's
email addy.

Thanks to all for the great discussion. As an instructor, the code has
been deep-rooted in my mind for a long time, so, my original
interpretation is that, when passing or overtaking anyone, the person
being overtaken has the right-of-way, regardless of their line or
change in line. However, as an instructor, I am responsible for the
safety of my students first and foremost. In that role, I would say
that I look up the hill and across the hill just as much as I look
down the hill and toward my students. On any given run, I feel as
though I know exactly where everyone is at all times, both below and
above me...sort of an inherent personal and class safety code. I very
much inherently behave as Marty stated above, "4) If you are going to
make a line change, look up the hill to make sure that: a) an out of
control dumbass isn't heading down that same line while heading for
the trees or lift pole, or b) a good skier that just happens to be
going faster than you isn't about to pass you in that line."

Interestingly, I found the following in the Colorado "Ski Safety Act
of 1979" (revised in 2006):

33-44-109(2) - Each skier has the duty to maintain control of his
speed and course at all times when skiing and to maintain a proper
lookout so as to be able to avoid other skiers and objects. However,
the primary duty shall be on the person skiing downhill to avoid
collision with any person or objects below him.

The wording here does not seem to pin down all the blame on the uphill
skier, just places a majority of the responsibility on the uphill
skier. The line, "...maintain a proper lookout so as to be able to
avoid other skiers..." could be interpretted to mean that people
should even check over their shoulder once in a while for people
coming down behind them.

So, it seems that the Responsibility Code would indeed place blame for
the collision on Skier #2. However, it seems that there is an
unwritten "safety" code that says, if you are skiing defensively, like
driving (hopefully), you'll be aware of the environment all around you
(i.e. uphill, downhill, side, etc.). Finally, the Colorado Statute,
actual law, seems to lend more ambiguity to the problem to the
scenario...very interesting.

wrote in message
...
Thanks to all for the great discussion. As an instructor, the code has
been deep-rooted in my mind for a long time, so, my original
interpretation is that, when passing or overtaking anyone, the person
being overtaken has the right-of-way, regardless of their line or
change in line. However, as an instructor, I am responsible for the
safety of my students first and foremost. In that role, I would say
that I look up the hill and across the hill just as much as I look
down the hill and toward my students. On any given run, I feel as
though I know exactly where everyone is at all times, both below and
above me...sort of an inherent personal and class safety code. I very
much inherently behave as Marty stated above, "4) If you are going to
make a line change, look up the hill to make sure that: a) an out of
control dumbass isn't heading down that same line while heading for
the trees or lift pole, or b) a good skier that just happens to be
going faster than you isn't about to pass you in that line."

Interestingly, I found the following in the Colorado "Ski Safety Act
of 1979" (revised in 2006):

33-44-109(2) - Each skier has the duty to maintain control of his
speed and course at all times when skiing and to maintain a proper
lookout so as to be able to avoid other skiers and objects. However,
the primary duty shall be on the person skiing downhill to avoid
collision with any person or objects below him.

The wording here does not seem to pin down all the blame on the uphill
skier, just places a majority of the responsibility on the uphill
skier. The line, "...maintain a proper lookout so as to be able to
avoid other skiers..." could be interpretted to mean that people
should even check over their shoulder once in a while for people
coming down behind them.

So, it seems that the Responsibility Code would indeed place blame for
the collision on Skier #2. However, it seems that there is an
unwritten "safety" code that says, if you are skiing defensively, like
driving (hopefully), you'll be aware of the environment all around you
(i.e. uphill, downhill, side, etc.). Finally, the Colorado Statute,
actual law, seems to lend more ambiguity to the problem to the
scenario...very interesting.




Whatever happened to the quaint custon of yelling "ON YOUR LEFT"? Seems
like that would have solved the problem.

I have really gotten cautious about skiers downhill of me. And boarders
take lines so strange sometimes, I give them a really wide berth.

mg



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Jan 7, 5:18*pm, wrote:

snip...

So, it seems that the Responsibility Code would indeed place blame for
the collision on Skier #2. However, it seems that there is an
unwritten "safety" code that says, if you are skiing defensively, like
driving (hopefully), you'll be aware of the environment all around you
(i.e. uphill, downhill, side, etc.).

Yes.

From the OP:

5) A couple of yards before passing, Skier #1 makes a hard left turn
across the hill, perpendicular to the fall line, and makes contact
with Skier #2 on the left side of the run.

Why would anyone abruptly change line (down the fall line to across
the fall line) without taking a quick look uphill? That's crazy.

It's one thing to be skiing down the fall line or even across the fall
line (any combination of turn shape) and get hit by somebody from
behind. That IS the uphill skiers fault. It's completely different
if you abruptly change your line from say the side of the hill to the
center coming across the fall line. There is plenty of time to look
up and make sure somebody else is not coming down at a higher speed to
the place that you want to go. You may cut into the path of a really
good skier that is about to overtake you and they MAY be able to miss
you. Maybe not. Why take the chance? If the uphill skier is right
behind you (as the OP had stated), then there is a far greater chance
that you'll get hit - no matter the skill of the uphill skier. Also,
speed is not a factor here. The uphill skier may be travelling only a
few mph faster than the downhill skier - well within the limits set by
the Yellow Jackets. The speed difference does not have to be great to
cause great harm in the collision and fall.

I'm not saying to look uphill with every turn. Look uphill when
making a significant change in your line or your turn shape (from
narrow to wide).

Common sense, not utter crap at all. I wish more people would
practice this "sort of" unwritten rule. Like I said, it would have
prevented this situation.
--
Marty

On Jan 7, 4:57*pm, "Bob F" wrote:
"ant" wrote in message

...





Walt wrote:
Marty wrote:

Look at #4:

- Whenever starting downhill or merging into a trail, look uphill and
yield to others.

The "Code" is better than I thought.

To me, trail is the same as line. *#1 is at fault.

I think you'll find that you're in the minority with that
interpretation.

My oath! And it's scary that there are people on the hill who can read those
very clear rules, and from them say that skiier 1 was at fault!

Person uphill MUST avoid the person downhill/ahead of them. *The overtaker
MUST avoid the person they are overtaking. The skiier MUST be in control to be
able to stop or avoid hitting things/people.

trail and line are totally different. *Once you start getting into definitions
of line, you hit so many problems. For instance, boarders and skiiers see
"line" totally differently. *And who is to say a line is a line? A beginner
carefully turning is quite different from a racer, or an intermediate.

And by the proposed definition, I should make sure to randomize my turns so the
overtaking skier cannot determine my "line", thereby making me responsible for
him running into me.

Bob F- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

5) A couple of yards before passing, Skier #1 makes a hard left turn
across the hill, perpendicular to the fall line, and makes contact
with Skier #2 on the left side of the run.

This is not a case of random turn shape IN the fall line. This is a
case of #1 coming across the fall line with a skier right behind him.
Huge difference. Look at the way it was stated - #1 makes contact
with #2 - who hit who? Is that how you drive a car? Do you abruptly
swerve from the left lane to the right without looking behind you or
to your left.
--
Marty

lal_truckee wrote:

Marty wrote:
On Jan 7, 11:57 am, wrote:
...
Is there some "personal awareness" in play here that Skier #1 should
have abided by? Who should be to blame for Skier #1's fall? Any
thoughts or comments on the matter would be appreciated.

No brainer - I didn't even read your whole post. Skier #1 is an
idiot. Never ever ever ever ever make a big change to your line
without looking uphill to see what's coming down. That is the same as
changing lanes in a car without looking looking next to and behind
you.

Well, surely. Skier 1 IS an idiot - Same deal as pulling in front of a
semi truck - if you do something stupid, you're going to get creamed.

Still, Skier 2 is at fault. The relevant code reads:
1) Always stay in control, and be able to stop or avoid other people or
objects.
2) People ahead of you have the right of way. It is your responsibility
to avoid them.

As with many traffic rules, they're written to cause maximum anxiety to
everybody involved because of the conflicts. The ones that aren't
deliberately contradictory were just written by idiots.

Pretty dam clear. And no mention of being off the hook just because
you're sharing the slope with an idiot. In fact, the only safe way to
approach skiing on resort slopes is to assume EVERYONE out there is an
idiot trying to kill or injure you.

That's also the bicyclists' and motorcyclists' approach, except you know
damn good and well that they ARE trying to kill you and the only thing
that stops them is potential paint scratches.

--
Cheers,
Bev
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Of course SoCal has four seasons:
Earthquake, Mudslide, Brushfire, and Riot

"Marty" wrote in message news:96c76cf5-4864-4887-8628-
It's one thing to be skiing down the fall line or even across the fall
line (any combination of turn shape) and get hit by somebody from
behind. That IS the uphill skiers fault. It's completely different
if you abruptly change your line from say the side of the hill to the
center coming across the fall line. There is plenty of time to look
up and make sure somebody else is not coming down at a higher speed to
the place that you want to go. You may cut into the path of a really
good skier that is about to overtake you and they MAY be able to miss
you. Maybe not. Why take the chance?

Maybe you are avoiding a badly timed bump, or a previously unseen rock. Do YOU
take the time to look behind you before you take evasive manuevers in every
case?

My experience is that a large number of skiers are quite unpredictable. You just
never know how they make their decisions to turn.

Marty wrote:

On Jan 7, 5:18 pm, wrote:

5) A couple of yards before passing, Skier #1 makes a hard left turn
across the hill, perpendicular to the fall line, and makes contact
with Skier #2 on the left side of the run.

Why would anyone abruptly change line (down the fall line to across
the fall line) without taking a quick look uphill? That's crazy.

No, it's stupid. Excluding those too limited to venture outside, half
the population is subnormal. Accordingly, half the people in front of
us are subnormal. Maybe we are too.

--
Cheers,
Bev
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Of course SoCal has four seasons:
Earthquake, Mudslide, Brushfire, and Riot

wrote in message
...
Thanks to all for the great discussion. As an instructor, the code has
been deep-rooted in my mind for a long time, so, my original
interpretation is that, when passing or overtaking anyone, the person
being overtaken has the right-of-way, regardless of their line or
change in line. However, as an instructor, I am responsible for the
safety of my students first and foremost. In that role, I would say
that I look up the hill and across the hill just as much as I look
down the hill and toward my students. On any given run, I feel as
though I know exactly where everyone is at all times, both below and
above me...sort of an inherent personal and class safety code. I very
much inherently behave as Marty stated above, "4) If you are going to
make a line change, look up the hill to make sure that: a) an out of
control dumbass isn't heading down that same line while heading for
the trees or lift pole, or b) a good skier that just happens to be
going faster than you isn't about to pass you in that line."

Interestingly, I found the following in the Colorado "Ski Safety Act
of 1979" (revised in 2006):

33-44-109(2) - Each skier has the duty to maintain control of his
speed and course at all times when skiing and to maintain a proper
lookout so as to be able to avoid other skiers and objects. However,
the primary duty shall be on the person skiing downhill to avoid
collision with any person or objects below him.

The wording here does not seem to pin down all the blame on the uphill
skier, just places a majority of the responsibility on the uphill
skier. The line, "...maintain a proper lookout so as to be able to
avoid other skiers..." could be interpretted to mean that people
should even check over their shoulder once in a while for people
coming down behind them.

So, it seems that the Responsibility Code would indeed place blame for
the collision on Skier #2. However, it seems that there is an
unwritten "safety" code that says, if you are skiing defensively, like
driving (hopefully), you'll be aware of the environment all around you
(i.e. uphill, downhill, side, etc.). Finally, the Colorado Statute,
actual law, seems to lend more ambiguity to the problem to the
scenario...very interesting.

The ambiguity is in your mind.