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Warm and cold skis
How different should a person expect skis labelled as warm or cold to
be? Would a person skiing for recreation be at a great disadvantage if they were using a warm ski on cold snow? Pete |
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#2
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wrote in message oups.com... How different should a person expect skis labelled as warm or cold to be? Sometimes warm skis work better in cold conditions and cold skis work better in warm conditions. Flex characteristics, side cut, base structure, stiffness at various points on the ski, and base material determine in varying degrees whether it will work well in a certain conditions for a particular skier. Would a person skiing for recreation be at a great disadvantage if they were using a warm ski on cold snow? Pete What I have stated are generalities that could be argued, but for recreational skiing it is not important to ferret out the differences between a well fitting warm or cold ski. For a high level racer it can be critical. Gary Jacobson Rosendale, NY |
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Thanks, Gary. That's a help. Pete
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How different should a person expect skis labelled as warm or cold to
be? Not very much, if you're only using them for recreation. Would a person skiing for recreation be at a great disadvantage if they were using a warm ski on cold snow? No. bt |
#6
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I only have warm skis, and I have successfully used them in races at 5F
after putting a decent amount of cold wax on them. So the answer is no, no disadvantage at all for recreation, and even not much disadvantage in races. Unless it's realy cold where you live, a warm ski is your all-around ski. wrote: How different should a person expect skis labelled as warm or cold to be? Would a person skiing for recreation be at a great disadvantage if they were using a warm ski on cold snow? Pete |
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No, they won't.
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Thank you all for your responses. I suspected that the difference might
be more important to a racer than to me. Pete |
#9
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Zach,
Thank you for your detailed postings, both on this topic and choice of classic skis. It is really useful information which I find find hard to source from elsewhere. If you have the time and energy, I would be grateful for your opinion as to why Veerpalu was using five-year old Fischers when he won at Otepaa this year? Alex Zach Caldwell wrote: wrote: How different should a person expect skis labelled as warm or cold to be? Would a person skiing for recreation be at a great disadvantage if they were using a warm ski on cold snow? Pete Hi Pete - I think Gary has already touched on the issues here. I'll try to complicate things a bit. Ski companies have different ways of designating warm versus cold skis, and they don't all change the same variables when they define the differences. Basically, skis can have different base materials, different base finishes, and different flex characteristics. Here's a brand-by-brand rundown of how different companies approach this: Atomic: All skis have the same base material and factory base finish. The difference between the "K" and the "W" constructions are in the flex characteristics. The cold skate skis have a longer, cooler pressure distribution while the warm skis tend to have somewhat lighter tip pressure and a shorter, hotter pressure distribution. In general, I've found that the cold skis have a smoother feel and better performance in softer conditions, while the warm skis are a bit better in tracks with a harder base. The classic skis have different wax pocket constructions as well as the above described differences. In the past the cold classic skis have had a very tapered pocket and on some skis it tended to be a bit short while the warms classic skis had a more elongated and flattened pocket with a more active response. The new (for next year) cold skis have pocket characteristics similar to what I've seen in the warm skis of the past, but with improved consistency. Generally the pockets are longer and positioned further forward on the ski. I haven't had next year's warm skis on the flex tester yet so I can't comment definitively on those, but I would expect them to have a higher and more active pocket. Fischer: Cold and plus skis have different base materials and different factory grinds. Both base materials are effective in a very wide range of conditions and the factory grind is more what defines the range of effective conditions for these skis. However, they both still work in a wide range of conditions. In both the skate and classic skis there are subtle differences between the flex characteristics of the cold and plus models. In general, like with Atomic, the cold skis have somewhat longer pressure distribution and are better suited to softer snow. Fischer is introducing a third classic ski for next year, designated "wet" as a further addition to their standard cold and plus skis. The wet ski is actually a totally different construction with very different characteristics from the "812" construction of the cold and plus models. The wet ski, or "902" construction has a much higher, more active pocket which is positioned further back on the ski. Additionaly, the 902 has distinct tip and tail "splay" when the skis are loaded, resulting in extremely light tip and tail pressure. The ski was originally designed for sloppy, wet klister conditions but many top level racers have found that the pocket characteristics of the 902 make them really good for some racers in all but the softest conditions. Madshus: Madshus has two classic skis and three skate skis for next year. The cold classic ski has a long, low pocket and long pressure distribution front and rear. The base material is formulated for colder snow and the factory grind is a little too aggressive for most of the cold conditions we see on this continent. The wet classic ski is more similar to the Fischer 902. It's got a wet snow base and a relatively heavy factory structure. There are three Madshus skate skis for next year. The 266 is the "regular conditions" ski and the one that people are most familiar with. Relatively cool pressure distribution, smooth flex characteristics and significant side-cut. In the past this ski has been available in either cold or wet base materials. For next year it will only come with a cold base and finish. The 276 is a "hard-pack" ski. Higher bridge camber, more active bridge flex, shorter and hotter pressure distribution and a more dampened tip make this a more energetic and active ski for harder conditions. Same sidecut as the 266, and the same cold base. The new 296 or "soft conditions" ski has no sidecut and a narrower forebody. It's got a high half-weight camber but a soft finish and the flex pattern cools-out dramatically as the load on the ski increases. The base is formulated for wet conditions and comes with a heavier factory structure. Rossignol - I deal with these guys less than the others, so I'm not as qualified to comment. But they've only got one base material. They've got three classic skis (C1, C2 and C3) which vary from soft, low camber to stiffer and higher camber. The C2 seems to be the most "universal" ski. According to Jim Fredericks they're all based on the same basic design philosophy, but fit to very different standards. For skating I believe that Rossi will have two models for next year. Somebody who knows more may have to set me straight on this. But I think one will be based on their F3 ski which is an outstanding all-around ski. The other will be based on their F1 which is a specialty ski for sprint, hard conditions and high speeds. The long and short of it is - almost any of these skis can be picked to be better or worse in a variety of conditions. Every company has one or two top-end skis that can be picked to be "universal" in application. Likewise, it could be very easy to end up with a ski that's good in one range of conditions, but not in any other. However, a recreational skier should be at no disadvantage using a warm ski in cold weather, provided the skis characteristics match the skier and the conditions. Kris Freeman's got nine pairs of skate skis that he regularly races on, and only one is marked "cold". A handful of the others have got very cold grinds on them, and are very fast in cold conditions... Zach Caldwell http://www.engineeredtuning.net/ |
#10
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A good pair of skis is a good pair of skis. When you find a fast pair
of skis, you don't give them up. My best pair of classic skis is from ca. 1997. -Nathan www.nsavage.com "Alex" wrote in message oups.com... Zach, Thank you for your detailed postings, both on this topic and choice of classic skis. It is really useful information which I find find hard to source from elsewhere. If you have the time and energy, I would be grateful for your opinion as to why Veerpalu was using five-year old Fischers when he won at Otepaa this year? Alex Zach Caldwell wrote: wrote: How different should a person expect skis labelled as warm or cold to be? Would a person skiing for recreation be at a great disadvantage if they were using a warm ski on cold snow? Pete Hi Pete - I think Gary has already touched on the issues here. I'll try to complicate things a bit. Ski companies have different ways of designating warm versus cold skis, and they don't all change the same variables when they define the differences. Basically, skis can have different base materials, different base finishes, and different flex characteristics. Here's a brand-by-brand rundown of how different companies approach this: Atomic: All skis have the same base material and factory base finish. The difference between the "K" and the "W" constructions are in the flex characteristics. The cold skate skis have a longer, cooler pressure distribution while the warm skis tend to have somewhat lighter tip pressure and a shorter, hotter pressure distribution. In general, I've found that the cold skis have a smoother feel and better performance in softer conditions, while the warm skis are a bit better in tracks with a harder base. The classic skis have different wax pocket constructions as well as the above described differences. In the past the cold classic skis have had a very tapered pocket and on some skis it tended to be a bit short while the warms classic skis had a more elongated and flattened pocket with a more active response. The new (for next year) cold skis have pocket characteristics similar to what I've seen in the warm skis of the past, but with improved consistency. Generally the pockets are longer and positioned further forward on the ski. I haven't had next year's warm skis on the flex tester yet so I can't comment definitively on those, but I would expect them to have a higher and more active pocket. Fischer: Cold and plus skis have different base materials and different factory grinds. Both base materials are effective in a very wide range of conditions and the factory grind is more what defines the range of effective conditions for these skis. However, they both still work in a wide range of conditions. In both the skate and classic skis there are subtle differences between the flex characteristics of the cold and plus models. In general, like with Atomic, the cold skis have somewhat longer pressure distribution and are better suited to softer snow. Fischer is introducing a third classic ski for next year, designated "wet" as a further addition to their standard cold and plus skis. The wet ski is actually a totally different construction with very different characteristics from the "812" construction of the cold and plus models. The wet ski, or "902" construction has a much higher, more active pocket which is positioned further back on the ski. Additionaly, the 902 has distinct tip and tail "splay" when the skis are loaded, resulting in extremely light tip and tail pressure. The ski was originally designed for sloppy, wet klister conditions but many top level racers have found that the pocket characteristics of the 902 make them really good for some racers in all but the softest conditions. Madshus: Madshus has two classic skis and three skate skis for next year. The cold classic ski has a long, low pocket and long pressure distribution front and rear. The base material is formulated for colder snow and the factory grind is a little too aggressive for most of the cold conditions we see on this continent. The wet classic ski is more similar to the Fischer 902. It's got a wet snow base and a relatively heavy factory structure. There are three Madshus skate skis for next year. The 266 is the "regular conditions" ski and the one that people are most familiar with. Relatively cool pressure distribution, smooth flex characteristics and significant side-cut. In the past this ski has been available in either cold or wet base materials. For next year it will only come with a cold base and finish. The 276 is a "hard-pack" ski. Higher bridge camber, more active bridge flex, shorter and hotter pressure distribution and a more dampened tip make this a more energetic and active ski for harder conditions. Same sidecut as the 266, and the same cold base. The new 296 or "soft conditions" ski has no sidecut and a narrower forebody. It's got a high half-weight camber but a soft finish and the flex pattern cools-out dramatically as the load on the ski increases. The base is formulated for wet conditions and comes with a heavier factory structure. Rossignol - I deal with these guys less than the others, so I'm not as qualified to comment. But they've only got one base material. They've got three classic skis (C1, C2 and C3) which vary from soft, low camber to stiffer and higher camber. The C2 seems to be the most "universal" ski. According to Jim Fredericks they're all based on the same basic design philosophy, but fit to very different standards. For skating I believe that Rossi will have two models for next year. Somebody who knows more may have to set me straight on this. But I think one will be based on their F3 ski which is an outstanding all-around ski. The other will be based on their F1 which is a specialty ski for sprint, hard conditions and high speeds. The long and short of it is - almost any of these skis can be picked to be better or worse in a variety of conditions. Every company has one or two top-end skis that can be picked to be "universal" in application. Likewise, it could be very easy to end up with a ski that's good in one range of conditions, but not in any other. However, a recreational skier should be at no disadvantage using a warm ski in cold weather, provided the skis characteristics match the skier and the conditions. Kris Freeman's got nine pairs of skate skis that he regularly races on, and only one is marked "cold". A handful of the others have got very cold grinds on them, and are very fast in cold conditions... Zach Caldwell http://www.engineeredtuning.net/ |
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