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Roll Out Start?



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 28th 07, 02:03 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Dave M-K
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Posts: 32
Default Roll Out Start?

Does anyone know of a ski race that does a roll-out start similar to those
done with bike races? A race I help organize has thrown this idea out there
as a way to utilize the same start and finish.

What has been discussed is to have a 4-stroke snow machine lead the skiers
for the first K or so then turn off and let the 'race' begin. The roll-out
section is about 1.5 pisten bulley's wide.

At this point it is not a likely possibility but do folks think we are
setting ourselves up for a cluster f.ck? I somewhat like the idea but I'm
pretty certain there would be a major yard sale during the roll-out.

Dave


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  #2  
Old August 30th 07, 04:25 AM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Scott Elliot
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Posts: 12
Default Roll Out Start?

Dave,

Why would this be better or more fair than a mass start?

Scott

p.s. I don't know why I am asking because I leave Monday for a month and a
half so I will probably miss the discussion.

"Dave M-K" wrote in message
...
Does anyone know of a ski race that does a roll-out start similar to those
done with bike races? A race I help organize has thrown this idea out
there as a way to utilize the same start and finish.

What has been discussed is to have a 4-stroke snow machine lead the skiers
for the first K or so then turn off and let the 'race' begin. The
roll-out section is about 1.5 pisten bulley's wide.

At this point it is not a likely possibility but do folks think we are
setting ourselves up for a cluster f.ck? I somewhat like the idea but I'm
pretty certain there would be a major yard sale during the roll-out.

Dave



  #3  
Old August 30th 07, 02:04 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Dave M-K
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 32
Default Roll Out Start?


"Scott Elliot" wrote in message
news:ZErBi.2516$bO6.1955@edtnps89...
Dave,

Why would this be better or more fair than a mass start?

Scott


The course widens to 2-3 times the width of the suggested start area after
1K. The start area we have historically used would be at the new 1K mark.

If we went with the new start most of us believe it would be too narrow for
a mass start race. Some think if we did a controlled roll-out for the first
K, this problem would be eliminated. Some of us believe we are only asking
for new problems.

Dave

p.s. I don't know why I am asking because I leave Monday for a month and
a half so I will probably miss the discussion.

"Dave M-K" wrote in message
...
Does anyone know of a ski race that does a roll-out start similar to
those done with bike races? A race I help organize has thrown this idea
out there as a way to utilize the same start and finish.

What has been discussed is to have a 4-stroke snow machine lead the
skiers for the first K or so then turn off and let the 'race' begin. The
roll-out section is about 1.5 pisten bulley's wide.

At this point it is not a likely possibility but do folks think we are
setting ourselves up for a cluster f.ck? I somewhat like the idea but
I'm pretty certain there would be a major yard sale during the roll-out.

Dave





  #4  
Old August 30th 07, 03:16 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 565
Default Roll Out Start?

The main advantage I see of a rollout is to get everyone on their skis
and going, to limit cold start problems (e.g., Jay's infamous Seeley
start or broken poles). It would also help skiers warm up slowly (an
excellent reason) and settle nerves some overall. The disadvantage is
that within the pack some will try to pass, whether for good reason or
out of anxiety. Without sufficient trail width and norms, that would
lead to disputes and accidents. Remember, in car racing rollouts use
placement based on immediate pre-race qualifying position.

rm

"Dave M-K" wrote:


"Scott Elliot" wrote in message
news:ZErBi.2516$bO6.1955@edtnps89...
Dave,

Why would this be better or more fair than a mass start?

Scott


The course widens to 2-3 times the width of the suggested start area
after 1K. The start area we have historically used would be at the
new 1K mark.

If we went with the new start most of us believe it would be too
narrow for a mass start race. Some think if we did a controlled
roll-out for the first K, this problem would be eliminated. Some of
us believe we are only asking for new problems.

Dave

p.s. I don't know why I am asking because I leave Monday for a
month and a half so I will probably miss the discussion.

"Dave M-K" wrote in message
...
Does anyone know of a ski race that does a roll-out start similar
to those done with bike races? A race I help organize has thrown
this idea out there as a way to utilize the same start and finish.

What has been discussed is to have a 4-stroke snow machine lead the
skiers for the first K or so then turn off and let the 'race'
begin. The roll-out section is about 1.5 pisten bulley's wide.

At this point it is not a likely possibility but do folks think we
are setting ourselves up for a cluster f.ck? I somewhat like the
idea but I'm pretty certain there would be a major yard sale during
the roll-out.

Dave





  #5  
Old August 30th 07, 04:25 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Jake
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10
Default Roll Out Start?

At first, I was a little bit skeptical about the benefits of a ski-out
start, but the most recent post may have changed my mind. The idea of
a little bit of immediately-pre-racing warm up really appeals to me,
though I do think it makes the organizers job a fair amount harder...
The temptation to move up in the group would definitely be there.

If it is a classic race, or if the first k or so is flat, why not set
tracks, pretty tightly spaced beside each other so that it would be
very difficult to pass? Also, if the speed is kept relatively low I
don't think there would be too too much carnage in that first k. Some
kind of seeding would be nice, but not entirely necessary, in my
opinion. What is the distance of the race?

Its definitely an interesting idea to think about, even if its not
entirely feasible for you yet, and it might even attract a few extra
people out of novelty.

  #6  
Old August 30th 07, 08:35 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Bjorn A. Payne Diaz
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Posts: 104
Default Roll Out Start?

On Aug 30, 10:16 am, wrote:
(e.g., Jay's infamous Seeley
start or broken poles).


One thing to learn from that incident is that you can't prevent idiots
from being idiots. They're just too ingenious.

I'd start the race a km into the course where the race is wider.
There's nothing important about the start line. The above mentioned
Seeley Hills starts a km into the course.

Jay

  #7  
Old August 31st 07, 12:22 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Dave M-K
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 32
Default Roll Out Start?


"Bjorn A. Payne Diaz" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Aug 30, 10:16 am, wrote:
(e.g., Jay's infamous Seeley
start or broken poles).


One thing to learn from that incident is that you can't prevent idiots
from being idiots. They're just too ingenious.

I'd start the race a km into the course where the race is wider.
There's nothing important about the start line.


The importance of the start comes in when there are 500 clothing bags to
move to the finish. If we have the same start and finish, we don't have to
move them. If the finish is 1K from the start we've got to move them. Not
a major problem but just one more thing to get volunteers for. Also I know
many people like starting and finishing in the same spot. You don't have to
worry about cramming all your gear into a bag that will break, you can bring
an extra pair of skis to test and you can leave your bag-o-stuff where ever
you want. BUT I agree with Jay that no matter what the start is like, there
will likely be some kind of tangle up, the narrower the area the greater the
chance the tangle is larger.

Dave

The above mentioned
Seeley Hills starts a km into the course.

Jay




  #8  
Old September 7th 07, 12:41 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Bjorn A. Payne Diaz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 104
Default Roll Out Start?


The importance of the start comes in when there are 500 clothing bags to
move to the finish. If we have the same start and finish, we don't have to
move them. If the finish is 1K from the start we've got to move them. Not
a major problem but just one more thing to get volunteers for. Also I know
many people like starting and finishing in the same spot. You don't have to
worry about cramming all your gear into a bag that will break, you can bring
an extra pair of skis to test and you can leave your bag-o-stuff where ever
you want. BUT I agree with Jay that no matter what the start is like, there
will likely be some kind of tangle up, the narrower the area the greater the
chance the tangle is larger.


Dave,

Going back to the 23 km Seeley Hills race....the start line is a solid
km from the finish line. They used to start and finish the race in the
same general area (a few hundred feet apart), but some of the starters
were on the flats, and the others were on a definite uphill. Because
of the hill at the old start, they moved the start. Now after
finishing, you have to make an effort to ski to the finish before you
lose your body temp. (Most strip off their warmups at the start
because the lineup starts early.) So no need for you to move the bags,
simply have a few people at the finish reminding people to fetch their
warmups before they freeze their gonads. Nobody blinks an eye at the
separate start and finish at this race. In fact there's no clothing
bags, just warmups tossed in various places. It's a pain to choose
skis 45 min before a classic race with temps rising quick, but people
do it. If you spread the word on the reason for the separate start and
finish at your race, the racers should roll with it.

Jay

  #9  
Old September 7th 07, 02:42 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Dave M-K
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 32
Default Roll Out Start?

Jay

My vote would be to have a seperate start and finish and not transport bags.
Last year we transported bags and people by a bus. Some people opted to ski
back to the start on the course. Some a**hole did this and knocked a racer
head over heels and then blamed the racer for not getting out of his way.
When I first heard the reports I couldn't believe them but when I heard that
some very credible people witnessed the event I was just sorry that we
didn't get an ID on the offending skier.

So now the organizing committee wants to close the course to skiers that
have finished. I can't blame them.

We will likely end up with what we did last year. It's not a big deal
really but it takes a fair amount of effort to transport the bags.

In theory I think the roll out start could be fun but in reality is a
disaster waiting to happen. Then again aren't all mass starts a disaster
waiting to happen?

As a side, the rcae in question is the Great Bear Chase. I always kind of
scratch my head and wonder why more people don't make the trek for the race.
My guess is several fold: people put the skis away after the Birkie, when
there is little to no snow in your backyard you don't think about racing AND
we are not close to anyone. Does that pretty much sum it up? Anything we
could do to entice more skiers?

Dave

"Bjorn A. Payne Diaz" wrote in message
ups.com...

The importance of the start comes in when there are 500 clothing bags to
move to the finish. If we have the same start and finish, we don't have
to
move them. If the finish is 1K from the start we've got to move them.
Not
a major problem but just one more thing to get volunteers for. Also I
know
many people like starting and finishing in the same spot. You don't have
to
worry about cramming all your gear into a bag that will break, you can
bring
an extra pair of skis to test and you can leave your bag-o-stuff where
ever
you want. BUT I agree with Jay that no matter what the start is like,
there
will likely be some kind of tangle up, the narrower the area the greater
the
chance the tangle is larger.


Dave,

Going back to the 23 km Seeley Hills race....the start line is a solid
km from the finish line. They used to start and finish the race in the
same general area (a few hundred feet apart), but some of the starters
were on the flats, and the others were on a definite uphill. Because
of the hill at the old start, they moved the start. Now after
finishing, you have to make an effort to ski to the finish before you
lose your body temp. (Most strip off their warmups at the start
because the lineup starts early.) So no need for you to move the bags,
simply have a few people at the finish reminding people to fetch their
warmups before they freeze their gonads. Nobody blinks an eye at the
separate start and finish at this race. In fact there's no clothing
bags, just warmups tossed in various places. It's a pain to choose
skis 45 min before a classic race with temps rising quick, but people
do it. If you spread the word on the reason for the separate start and
finish at your race, the racers should roll with it.

Jay



  #10  
Old September 7th 07, 06:41 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Bjorn A. Payne Diaz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 104
Default Roll Out Start?

Dave,

You bring up a good point about skiing backwards on the course. With
Seeley, you're skiing a km on trail that is not used for the race. I
never thought about your situation.

As for the Bear Chase, I really enjoyed it the one time I skied it. I
believe I signed up both of the next two years and didn't ski it.
Something about 50 trees down on the course and the second year it was
a bazillion below zero. When I backed out of my reservations at a B&B,
the folks were torqued, and thought I was a whimp for not driving up.
(Then the power went out in the place and the trees went down.
Hopefully I was vindicated.)

If we look back maybe 7 years, most folks would race a number of
weekends and ski the Birkie a bit tired (from racing). For me, after
the Birkie it was physically difficult to ski hard because the body is
just plain tired, and I bet others are similar. In more recent years,
my total hours have gone well below 400/year, and racing on
consecutive weekends becomes even more difficult due to a lack of
conditioning. Last winter I raced five times and came out of season
feeling better than previous years with about 8-10 races. I thought
about the Bear Chase but it is a haul from the Cities. Arranging for a
"dog sitter" is an issue.

This year I have no motivation for training and most other things seem
more important. I'm thinking about taking a season off and race the
Birkie just to hold my position and hope the motivation comes next
year. I blame it on global warming, but maybe I"m just getting old.

Last year we had about 2-3 weeks of "local" skiing (that I really
enjoyed), and the remainder of the season was spent trying to arrange
my schedule so I could drive 90 minutes for each workout on snow. We
used to think of the artificial snow as extending the season, but now
artificial snow is both the training and racing center for the season.
As John says, we've moved to Iowa and didn't realize it. I think I'd
be better off (in overall mental health) by riding the bike and
running during the week, and driving to snow on the weekends. Of
course if it snows this winter, I will be immediately fired up. It's
an amazing transformation, even to me.

Jay

 




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