Seefeld - Leutasch in Austria

I had fun skiing a day at Seefeld and a day at neighboring Leutasch --
northwest from Innsbruck near the border with Germany. But it didn't strike
me as the best place in Europe. I liked Leutasch better: more spectacular
mountains in close view from the ski trails, quieter and more remote, more
opportunities for more fun skating, much gentler. I liked that Seefeld -
Leutasch is in reasonable driving range of other fun kinds of skiing (like
one morning I drove south to the Stubai mountains for downhill and
backcountry skiing), and valley non-skiing things (like walking around the
city of Innsbruck).

Some German automobile club voted Seefeld the best for cross-country skiing.
The only interpretation I can put on this result is: Most of those voters
never skied the best places in France (or North America), and most of them
like Classic more than Skating.

Maybe my judgment is just a result of my skiing prejudices: My idea of fun
cross-country skiing trail design is up - down - up - down - up - down. Do a
little work, get a little reward. The design of many European XC ski trails
(including many of the Seefeld skating trails) is up - up - up, then down -
down - down. For me that's too long a deferral of insufficient
gratification.

For me La Feclaz near Chambery in France gets it right, for its rhythm of
rolling ups and downs. Les Saisies shows how to have as much hill-climbing
as Seefeld, but mix in more fun downhills along the way, and somehow make it
all more interesting than Seefeld. Maybe I would have found this on the
Classic trails at Seefeld -- or maybe it's Leutasch that's working on
delivering the fun for skaters: I found a new trail there called Waldloipe
which felt like a good start toward a higher level of fun.

I've seen some claims that Seefeld - Leutasch is the largest XC ski center
in Europe, something like 262 km of trails. Is the Oslo Nordmarka not part
of "Europe"? Could it be that the Jura have a larger network of
interconnected groomed trail?

Anyway for Skating this claim is a joke. I could not find out on the snow or
on the map a skating-permissible trail which connects Seefeld with Leutasch
(and that's not the only skating disconnect in the five-village network). I
saw one advertisement which said they've only got 110km of skating trails.
Like Ramsau in Austria, for Skating,
They just don't get it.

Seefeld is a good place to ski in Austria, but the world is bigger than
that.

Look forward to hearing from other skiers with more and different
experiences around Seefeld -- and different preferences.

Ken

P.S. Who does "get it" about skating?
* France, every ski center I've been to.
* lots of places in North America.

Ken Roberts wrote:

Look forward to hearing from other skiers with more and different
experiences around Seefeld -- and different preferences.

hi Ken,

I just read this post and I have to say that basically, I agree with you.
I've been two times in Seefeld (I have the luck to attend a congress
there in winter time!) and I have to admit that the place probably
suffers too much from an "hype" effect.
I mean, the surroundings are great, the place is truly nice, but it
seems to me a little too much oriented for and older style of tourism,
and not just for x-country fanatics. You're right about distinction
between classic and skatig: it seems that the former is much more
appreciated, due IMO to the considerations made above about the kind of
people who go there (if you have a look around it is pretty hard to find
young people: usually old couples or families with kids, and this has
been confirmed by several austrian too)
Anyhow, some tracks are REALLY nice, the world cup loop is VEERY nice
and tough, and also some of the other tracks are definetively worth of
skiing sometimes.

P.S. Who does "get it" about skating?
* France, every ski center I've been to.
* lots of places in North America.

I keep on "defending" northern Italy:Veneto (Asiago), Trentino (Lavazè,
Val di Fiemme), South tirol...I don't know too much the West side (near
Torino) but they have nice tracks there too

--
beorn
"You've got to learn to crawl
before you learn to walk"
Aerosmith (Amazing)

beorn wrote:
I keep on "defending" northern Italy: Veneto (Asiago)

Yes I'm just now getting to enjoy the excellent skating centers in Italy.

I just got to spend a day skating in Italy on the Asiago plateau, from the
Campomulo start, a little north from the town of Gallio. Definitely more
skating trails than the Seefeld - Leutasch networks. And more connected. I
made sure to actually skated the interconnect trails between the Enego and
Gallio networks -- to verify that they didn't have any "disconnects" for
skating like between the different Seefeld villages.

I also found the trail designs of Gallio more interesting: more rollers and
curves and dips. Though I did find some long unremitting climbs or downhills
(notably on the two trails inter-connecting Enego and Gallio -- which most
skaters would not need to use).

I did find the Asiago area kinda hilly. Leutasch seemed to have a lot more
km in the flat-to-gentle range (but which I didn't find that interesting).
And I suspect Leutasch comes out ahead on views of spectacular mountains.

The Asiago plateau also has (at least) two other large interconnected trail
networks, each with at least two distinct access points. So for all I know,
there might be three Asiago trail networks which each has more km of skating
than all of the Seefeld - Leutasch villages combined.

Also I was talking to a German skier and he said that Seefeld is not very
high in altitude -- so while Asiago may be further south, many of its trails
(at least for Gallio) are higher in altitude than the Seefeld trails.

Then I had a rather fun morning skiing in Antholz (Anterselva) in the
Sudtirol region of Italy -- the biathlon center has a very well-designed
trail network. If the Seefeld villages want to move to the front rank of fun
skating, they should send a delegation to Antholz and figure out now to copy
that design into part of their trail network.

Ken

Ken Roberts wrote:

Yes I'm just now getting to enjoy the excellent skating centers in Italy.

good choice! ;-)

I just got to spend a day skating in Italy on the Asiago plateau, from the
Campomulo start, a little north from the town of Gallio. Definitely more
skating trails than the Seefeld - Leutasch networks. And more connected. I
made sure to actually skated the interconnect trails between the Enego and
Gallio networks -- to verify that they didn't have any "disconnects" for
skating like between the different Seefeld villages.

yes, you can find a connection between the two "resorts", altough they
belong to different ski centers.
When did you do skiing? The snow was exceptional up to two weeks ago,
but now it's definetively too hot and it's very slow and melting

I also found the trail designs of Gallio more interesting: more rollers and
curves and dips. Though I did find some long unremitting climbs or downhills
(notably on the two trails inter-connecting Enego and Gallio -- which most
skaters would not need to use).

yes, I agree. Campomulo is one of the best places to ski, but it suffers
from the shape of the mountain where it lies...this means in some
circumstances you find very long climbs.
I hope you tried the Marcesina (with a long tricky downhill and a
section in one of the coldest italian valley!) and also the Fossetta,
which pays you back all your efforts with an astonishing view from 1,900
meters (ok, evrrything in one day is "quite" hard...)

I did find the Asiago area kinda hilly. Leutasch seemed to have a lot more
km in the flat-to-gentle range (but which I didn't find that interesting).
And I suspect Leutasch comes out ahead on views of spectacular mountains.

definetively!

The Asiago plateau also has (at least) two other large interconnected trail
networks, each with at least two distinct access points. So for all I know,
there might be three Asiago trail networks which each has more km of skating
than all of the Seefeld - Leutasch villages combined.

in Asiago you can find several ski centers.
My favourite for training is just out of the town, at the golf
course...it is where the world cup race is made, and it offers about
30kms of trails, both easy and very technical, according to what you
like the most.
Then, there is Gallio and Enego.
But also Campolongo, on the border between Veneto and Trentino is nice!
It connects to three other centers in Trentino, thus offering about
100kms of trails, and it's higher (~1,550 meters, like Campomulo) than
Asiago.
BTW if you plan to have buy skis, shoes, etc don't forget to pay a visit
to the local shops: they have by far the cheapest prices you can find,
really! I recently grabbed a new pair of salomon carbon at a truly low
price :-)

Also I was talking to a German skier and he said that Seefeld is not very
high in altitude -- so while Asiago may be further south, many of its trails
(at least for Gallio) are higher in altitude than the Seefeld trails.

Seefeld is about 1,200. Asiago town is 1,000, and Campomulo is 1,500
(meters)

Then I had a rather fun morning skiing in Antholz (Anterselva) in the
Sudtirol region of Italy -- the biathlon center has a very well-designed
trail network. If the Seefeld villages want to move to the front rank of fun
skating, they should send a delegation to Antholz and figure out now to copy
that design into part of their trail network.

I agree, both on Antholz and Seefeld.
Now you have to try passo Lavazè :-)
but I'm afraid this year's already too late :-(

--
beorn
"You've got to learn to crawl
before you learn to walk"
Aerosmith (Amazing)

beorn wrote
Now you have to try passo Lavazè

Actually I did, thanks to your recommendation. Big pretty views, interesting
trails, plenty of snow. Another place I'll take for skating over Seefeld.

When did you do skiing?

I skied in these places in Italy during the last week in March.

The snow was exceptional up to two weeks ago, but now it's definetively
too hot and it's very slow and melting

That sounds like confusing the time of year with the time of day. Usually if
there's a clear ski at night (for radiative cooling) and I get out early in
the morning, there's a good (or excellent) surface for skating in April and
May. Often don't even need grooming -- just skate anywhere on the firm
surface early in the morning. I met an Italian skier at the Rifugio Moline
and he said last year he was skiing until the beginning of May.

Perhaps it's time for more European ski-skaters to read "Captain Nordic"
Mark's ideas and stories about springtime off-trail skating tours in
California.

Ken

Ken Roberts wrote:

Actually I did, thanks to your recommendation. Big pretty views, interesting
trails, plenty of snow. Another place I'll take for skating over Seefeld.

that's another of my favourites!

That sounds like confusing the time of year with the time of day. Usually if
there's a clear ski at night (for radiative cooling) and I get out early in
the morning, there's a good (or excellent) surface for skating in April and
May. Often don't even need grooming -- just skate anywhere on the firm
surface early in the morning. I met an Italian skier at the Rifugio Moline
and he said last year he was skiing until the beginning of May.

well, I wouldn't dare try skiing there in May, for sure rocks will end
scratching your nice skis :-)
you're right about time of the day, I agree that if you go out at 7am
you can still ski...but for less than two hours, because than it doesn't
get that nice, unless you prefer "wandering with your skis" (which, btw,
sometimes is sooo nice)

Perhaps it's time for more European ski-skaters to read "Captain Nordic"
Mark's ideas and stories about springtime off-trail skating tours in
California.

well, probably we're a bit too-well used :-)
any suggestion on where could I find this interesting reading?

--
beorn
"You've got to learn to crawl
before you learn to walk"
Aerosmith (Amazing)

Maybe I should repost my images from Seefeld and Leutasch :
http://www.turrennklubben.no/tur_seefeld2005.htm

If there are better places than Seefeld I'm interested. Seefeld was
veeery well groomed. I've been to Lavaze but pick Seefeld. Seefeld has
slightly better and more interesting tracks and after skiing there is
alot more to do in Seefeld. Anterselva is yet to be testet for me.
It is true that Seefeld have more older skiers around. Except the last
two days before Ganghoferlauf. Other than that you can often get the
feeling of beeing the best skier around and build up selfconfidence:-)
Leutasch is very flat but i don't like to cross car-roads every now and
then. The region is more classic minded, but still very good for
skating. many places in Norway have surprisingly bad/tiny conditions
for skating.

Maybe Seefeld is one of the biggest xc resorts because Oslo is not one
resort that advertise as ONE place. But Oslo and nordmarka is quite
big. And it's all free for XC.

Next year is maybe Jura for me. I think Robert "advertised" for that
place before. Chapelle des Bois and all of Transjurassienne track.
Maybe Robert could refresh my memory on what places around Les Rousses
that were so great.



Ken Roberts wrote:
I had fun skiing a day at Seefeld and a day at neighboring Leutasch --
northwest from Innsbruck near the border with Germany. But it didn't strike
me as the best place in Europe. I liked Leutasch better: more spectacular
mountains in close view from the ski trails, quieter and more remote, more
opportunities for more fun skating, much gentler. I liked that Seefeld -
Leutasch is in reasonable driving range of other fun kinds of skiing (like
one morning I drove south to the Stubai mountains for downhill and
backcountry skiing), and valley non-skiing things (like walking around the
city of Innsbruck).

Some German automobile club voted Seefeld the best for cross-country skiing.
The only interpretation I can put on this result is: Most of those voters
never skied the best places in France (or North America), and most of them
like Classic more than Skating.



For me La Feclaz near Chambery in France gets it right, for its rhythm of
rolling ups and downs. Les Saisies shows how to have as much hill-climbing
as Seefeld, but mix in more fun downhills along the way, and somehow make it
all more interesting than Seefeld. Maybe I would have found this on the
Classic trails at Seefeld -- or maybe it's Leutasch that's working on
delivering the fun for skaters: I found a new trail there called Waldloipe
which felt like a good start toward a higher level of fun.

wrote:

Maybe I should repost my images from Seefeld and Leutasch :
http://www.turrennklubben.no/tur_seefeld2005.htm

nice to see those lands again, they look familiar :-)

If there are better places than Seefeld I'm interested. Seefeld was
veeery well groomed. I've been to Lavaze but pick Seefeld. Seefeld has
slightly better and more interesting tracks and after skiing there is
alot more to do in Seefeld.

what I do love of Seefeld is the scenic effect, which is superb.
And the tracks are well groomed, although in some circumstances they
were not wonderful, but still in good conditions. Some tracks are nice,
but as I said I would say it's more oriented towards classic skiers (and
in general old public)
Lavazè is just a ski center: there's nothing there but two hotels and
ski-trails, if you then want to enjoy some life you need to go either to
Trento or Bolzano, but for skiing it's very good.
Asiago has, on the overall, more interesting trails than Lavazè and
Seefeld, it does not offer the same view as Seefeld (although it's not
bad at all, esp when you climb above 1,700) and the town is much bigger
than Seefeld.
On the overall, it's the place where I like to ski the most (but also
'cause it's the closest for me)

It is true that Seefeld have more older skiers around. Except the last
two days before Ganghoferlauf. Other than that you can often get the
feeling of beeing the best skier around and build up selfconfidence:-)

yeah, when they look at you and say "look at that guy, that's a good
one"! :-)

Maybe Seefeld is one of the biggest xc resorts because Oslo is not one
resort that advertise as ONE place. But Oslo and nordmarka is quite
big. And it's all free for XC.

I have to try Scandinavia, probably next season.
I've been to Sweden several times, but always spring/summer, so it would
be the right occasion for a winter week.

--
beorn
"You've got to learn to crawl
before you learn to walk"
Aerosmith (Amazing)

wrote:
Maybe Seefeld is one of the biggest xc resorts because Oslo is not one
resort that advertise as ONE place. But Oslo and nordmarka is quite
big. And it's all free for XC.

Quite big indeed. :-)

Either 2600 or 2900 km is the stated total for groomed xc trails, plus
of course quite a bit of 'natural trails', i.e. little shortcuts between
big trails, as well as local loops up to hilltops and other locations
where a Pistenbully wouldn't be able to find a way.

OTOH, the amount of proper skating trails is a lot more limited, in that
most of those kms are set with a single 3+ m wide trail with classic
tracks on both sides. This makes the central area between the classic
tracks a bit too narrow for skating.

I have noticed that several places here in Norway seems to have heard
the plea from Norwegian skiers and coaches at the olympics: "More
skating trails!"

This shows up as settting a single classic track on one side of the
trail, leaving enough room for proper skating, instead of the
traditional double classic tracks.

Terje

--
-
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

Terje Mathisen wrote
I have noticed that several places here in Norway seems to have heard the
plea: "More skating trails!"

Norway is another country that ought to send a delegation to the Antholz
(Anterselva) biathlon center with the question: How can we duplicate this
back home?

I notice that the better cross-country skiing centers in France are starting
to charge more _money_ for a single-day ski pass. At least one is over 8
Euros -- I paid it and had a delightful skiing experience. Charge more money
and _deliver_ a substantially better skiing experience (grooming + fun trail
design) for truly serious skiers. And offer discounts to families and school
groups who come for a snow day.

(Actually that's 8 Euros is substantially less than what some good XC ski
centers in the US charge for a single-day ski pass)

Ken