Fix XC by making it more like bike road racing!

I put up an article at my OYB.com site just now at this link:
http://outyourbackdoor.com/article.php?id=577

But here's the text:

The Olympic 50k mass-start XC marathon ended with a big bunch pretty
much, like most mass-start World Cup races do. Everyone is too good for
anyone to break away. So the top skiers all end up marking each other
and giving a bit of a boring display.

We don't need to get rid of the mass start---we need to start giving
skiers the kinds of courses that show their ability in its best light.

Let's start playing to the strengths of the mass start format!

XC is almost as fast as bike racing these days. Big packs form. Then
nothing happens. Why? Because the events aren't long or hard enough.
Sure, they're stunningly hard, but this doesn't stand out well enough
for the fans. Pro bike races aren't 2 hours, they're 4-6 hours. And
they come in great varieties.

I suggest more bike-like formats for XC. Right now WC XC courses must
have 1/3 uphills, 1/3 flats, 1/3 descents (some ratio like that).

Let's start out by including outright mellow courses to suit the big
brute power skiers---like the Spring classics in bike racing---but
longer so the brutes can break things up more and not just tow everyone
to the finish. OK, the courses wouldn't be actually mellow but would be
conducive to speed and power.

Then have courses that are like road bike mountain stages. Send the
skiers from a valley town on one side of a mountain range over a pass
and to a town on the other side then back again in 4 hours, say. It
would be a course for the featherweight climbers.

Such formats would surely break up any mooching packs and provide drama
and variety. The mass start format wouldn't then be any cause for
boredom. Sure, some small packs would still stay together as skiers
formed alliances---but that ADDS to drama, which is what fans like.

Let's not stop there. Let's offer skills-oriented courses with mostly
singletrack and twisty, narrow trails that go up, down and all
around---hang onto your hat. That could be just an hour or two long and
no one is going to do any mooching and the crowds would love it.

Last of all: let's include all three kinds of racing in one week. (I
note that there's a proposed stage race in XC in 2007---my set-up would
make for a better stage race, I think.)

Right now the race formats are too similar---mostly quite short, using
the same hills-ratio---or too boring because they don't exploit the
beauty of the mass start.

None of my 3 suggestions seem to be offered or played up anywhere. Not
that I've heard, anyway. There might be courses like these on the
regional or World Loppet level, but I'm not sure that their effects on
the racing style are played up enough. If they were, word would get
out. And word is good.

--Jeff Potter
outyourbackdoor.com

Interesting ideas! I can't rate them as I'm too new to the sport. I do get
bored seeing longer XC on tv, which is a shame, I like check the techniques
used, but get distracted if nothing happens. Everything is totally white
already, not much sensation of speed.

The impression I got was that the non-sprinters just failed to keep the pace
high enough. If you're a non-sprinter and enjoying the scenery liek the rest
of the leading pack, you might as well settle for 20th place before you even
start the most important race of your life.

A long singletrack passage, (even non-technical but preferable steep up)
mid-race might motivivate racers to make sure they have a lead going into
it. If you can drop the #2 or have a friend there, you can open up a bigger
lead and the rest is just chasing. Much like in mountainbiking and
cyclocross. The start of the race is all-important even if a lap has only a
single meter of singletrack in it. You really don't want to be 3rd of a
group going in there. Fierce sprints take place, technical manouevres to not
eat dirt, spectacular racing.

If hills are long and tough enough, followed by a long non-recovery section,
attacks will be much more worth it. Weaker climbers/sprinters can't make up
lost time on the descends, and just lose more and more time on the attacking
leader. Groups fall apart.
If even that doesn't help and singletrack is not considered fair (tactical
racing, pacing), then racers have to take their responsibility and rather
than praising themselves for being in the lead group, kick themselves for
still having 40 guys within arm reach. If #40 in the race is still within
seconds of you, and you're not totally exhausted, you're not really worth
winning. The sprinter that takes advantage on the finishline, is lucky, but
worth it.

Maybe some rule could be devised that somewhere along the lap, you're not
allowed to leaves the loipe you pick (even a skate race), and also not
allowed to draft the guy in front. 8 loipes next to each other, and if you
attack there, no-one can take advantage and tuck in your draft. Well, I
guess in skating it could work also, like a longer wider finish straight. a
couple turns in it would be nice, so the leaders change all the time. When
you leaves the regulated zone (perfect for accepting drinks too, the
no-drafting), you're all in a full sprint, trying to keep up of get a gap.
No-drafting could be as easy as keep the (5m?) distance of the lines sprayed
on the snow, also marked with pine branches or something.
You really don't want to be the 9th to go on the the 8-broad regulated zone,
especially if there's 2 guys of the same nations on the first rows. One
could take it easy though it, and your race is over. as you can't switch
lanes. Perhaps unless a 10m gap opens right next to you.

Just my ?0,02

J
The Netherlands


schreef in bericht
oups.com...
I put up an article at my OYB.com site just now at this link:
http://outyourbackdoor.com/article.php?id=577

But here's the text:

The Olympic 50k mass-start XC marathon ended with a big bunch pretty
much, like most mass-start World Cup races do. Everyone is too good for
anyone to break away. So the top skiers all end up marking each other
and giving a bit of a boring display.

We don't need to get rid of the mass start---we need to start giving
skiers the kinds of courses that show their ability in its best light.

Let's start playing to the strengths of the mass start format!

XC is almost as fast as bike racing these days. Big packs form. Then
nothing happens. Why? Because the events aren't long or hard enough.
Sure, they're stunningly hard, but this doesn't stand out well enough
for the fans. Pro bike races aren't 2 hours, they're 4-6 hours. And
they come in great varieties.

I suggest more bike-like formats for XC. Right now WC XC courses must
have 1/3 uphills, 1/3 flats, 1/3 descents (some ratio like that).

Let's start out by including outright mellow courses to suit the big
brute power skiers---like the Spring classics in bike racing---but
longer so the brutes can break things up more and not just tow everyone
to the finish. OK, the courses wouldn't be actually mellow but would be
conducive to speed and power.

Then have courses that are like road bike mountain stages. Send the
skiers from a valley town on one side of a mountain range over a pass
and to a town on the other side then back again in 4 hours, say. It
would be a course for the featherweight climbers.

Such formats would surely break up any mooching packs and provide drama
and variety. The mass start format wouldn't then be any cause for
boredom. Sure, some small packs would still stay together as skiers
formed alliances---but that ADDS to drama, which is what fans like.

Let's not stop there. Let's offer skills-oriented courses with mostly
singletrack and twisty, narrow trails that go up, down and all
around---hang onto your hat. That could be just an hour or two long and
no one is going to do any mooching and the crowds would love it.

Last of all: let's include all three kinds of racing in one week. (I
note that there's a proposed stage race in XC in 2007---my set-up would
make for a better stage race, I think.)

Right now the race formats are too similar---mostly quite short, using
the same hills-ratio---or too boring because they don't exploit the
beauty of the mass start.

None of my 3 suggestions seem to be offered or played up anywhere. Not
that I've heard, anyway. There might be courses like these on the
regional or World Loppet level, but I'm not sure that their effects on
the racing style are played up enough. If they were, word would get
out. And word is good.

--Jeff Potter
outyourbackdoor.com

Every time I see this question I think;
When the radio and TV snow reports start reading off Nordic conditions
we may have hope. As it is all we get are Alpine reports. Along those
same lines, weather meteorologists here in the east this winter
routinely announced, grinning from ear to ear, "It's another fine week!
Unseasonably mild." Wouldn't it be great if the meteorologist would
say, "If you're looking for great XC this week-end, Mansfield has
15" of snow in the woods and 25K tracked and packed and ready for
fun." Nordic success might start with a little help from these guys.

I don't think that more radical races will draw sponsors or spectators.
From what I can see, biathlon and sprints are more likely to work.
These are stadium sports that you can pack a high number of people into
(who can see allot of the action) and cover with a minimum of cameras.
I also believe that the American spectator likes to be in a stadium
where they can have a collective experience. Stadium events can also
benefit from trucked in snow when natural snow is not available. How
many canceled races were there in your area this winter?

Would a Nordic racing boom benefit the sport? As a practicing
curmudgeon I have to say that the mountain biking boom has been a
detriment to the trail systems and has not enhanced the outdoor
experience. I am not opposed to mountain bikes (but I await a bashing)
but there are a lot of destructive riders. I would hate to see some
unforeseen popularity backlash visit the Nordic scene.

We are a tossed off demographic as evidenced by the recent Olympic
coverage. We are as a group just not very attractive to sponsors. I
think that Triathlon, 5K, 10K and Marathon have taken off because they
are not really weather condition reliant (like XC) and they draw hugely
from shoe and apparel markets.

I have another question; Where did the US Nordic team train prior to
the Olympics? I do not seem to recall seeming them in the WC races that
I downloaded. Did the USOC have them stashed away somewhere?

/john

jgs wrote:
[ ]
I don't think that more radical races will draw sponsors or spectators.

My tip isn't for a 'radical' format but for what I call a more
reasonable format. Right now they're proposing an XC stage race and all
the events are very similar. Dumb. I say it's sensible to toss out the
1/3's rule. Why not encourage some real variety? Again, my idea is to
have different courses for the big guys, the skinny guys and the nimble
ones. My second idea is sensible as well, not radical: mass start WC
events are boring right now---I say it's because they aren't long
enough. All in all, XC is more like roadbike racing today, so let's
make the events more like bike events. Nothing radical there.

From what I can see, biathlon and sprints are more likely to work.
These are stadium sports that you can pack a high number of people into
(who can see allot of the action) and cover with a minimum of cameras.
I also believe that the American spectator likes to be in a stadium
where they can have a collective experience.

Maybe that's part of a separate experiment----if XC could get close to
the success of bikes, tris, runs, that would be good enough for me. No
stadiums there.

Stadium events can also
benefit from trucked in snow when natural snow is not available. How
many canceled races were there in your area this winter?

Would a Nordic racing boom benefit the sport? As a practicing
curmudgeon I have to say that the mountain biking boom has been a
detriment to the trail systems

One of the biggest plusses of XC that should be played up is: no
erosion and less maintenance, especially for singletrack. Everyday
casual skiers can create trails which literally disappear in the
spring: zero impact.

and has not enhanced the outdoor
experience. I am not opposed to mountain bikes (but I await a bashing)
but there are a lot of destructive riders. I would hate to see some
unforeseen popularity backlash visit the Nordic scene.

Yeah, I promote skills and singletrack but I wouldn't be a fan of
danger-risk action in XC. But it may well happen. It's just that so far
both the XC marketers and the public have been too stupid to promote
"big drops"---or any drops at all---in trail-XC. (It's in tele, I
suppose.) I suspect that someone can trick with XC even along a common
trail in much the same way they can with a mtbike. OK, one maker is
making trick skis right now, so maybe something will happen. But so far
no messages from XC biz have ever crossed to the general public yet.
Maybe thankfully! The only time XC was ever big was due to the
grassroots---well, skateboarding is a grassroots thing, too. Who knows,
maybe trick XC will tend to be more moderate than other trick action. I
don't mind some tricks myself. XC doesn't have the padding or
suspension of other trick action.

We are a tossed off demographic as evidenced by the recent Olympic
coverage. We are as a group just not very attractive to sponsors.

It's a multipart question. Making better events that are more
interesting and diverse won't necessarily coz a popularity
explosion---but better is better anyway. The skiers might like it more.
Right now with the 1/3's rule and most events of moderate distance only
one body-type of skier is rewarded. A mt-pass event will favor the
little guys. A flat one will favor big guys. Singletrack favors the
nimble. Diversify your base and your sport becomes stronger.

I
think that Triathlon, 5K, 10K and Marathon have taken off because they
are not really weather condition reliant (like XC) and they draw hugely
from shoe and apparel markets.

I have another question; Where did the US Nordic team train prior to
the Olympics? I do not seem to recall seeming them in the WC races that
I downloaded. Did the USOC have them stashed away somewhere?

I read that they were really $-broke this year. Bad timing, eh? To get
the rug pulled out just before the Olys. Doh! But I don't know what
they did. I suppose if yer broke yer broke but it seems like $600 would
get RT airfare---get their butts over there by hook or by crook. I
spose their parents were all tapped out?

/john

Hi,
Maybe 'radical' was the wrong word.

Interesting thing about body types; If you look at the podium at the
men's 50K at the Olympics - small, medium and large, all on the steps
together. I don't think you see that in many endurance sports.

Question; how does a Piste Groomer groom a drop? Just wondering. Would
you have races in the terrain park? On the Big hill?

For me, I think XC will always be a marginal sport in the US. Maybe
that's ok. Someday a freakishly talented and charismatic person like
Lance or Becky Scott will come forward and capture our imagination. The
one race I would have run this year (for fun) kept getting rescheduled,
I lost track. It is hard to get a sport rolling when you can't even
set a date. We need some man made snow and a contained track so that
promoters can count on the event happening. How else can you get the
even the local Mom and Pop businesses to sponsor signage and feeding
stations?
It's tough.

The rest of the world views sports differently than us. I mean look at
Auto Cross - they line the back roads by the tens of thousands to
watch, just like Le Tour. I hear the Swedes will show up in the
thousands to watch Orienteering.

Americans like a corporate package - Golf, Tennis, Football,
Baseball.....stadiums, coke, Chevy, hard to get us to line the woods
and cheer for EVERYONE that goes by.

Skateboarding may have been grassroots but it is dominated by THE
demographic.

Who knows, XC may just be the next big thing.

/john

Here in the Netherlands we hardly get any snow. What does a second hand snow
machine cost anyway, and much trail can it "build" overnight?
I dream of an XC event here. Even if it's just a short race and then rental
skiing, or a big workshop kind of thing.

"jgs" schreef in bericht
oups.com...
Hi,
Maybe 'radical' was the wrong word.

Interesting thing about body types; If you look at the podium at the
men's 50K at the Olympics - small, medium and large, all on the steps
together. I don't think you see that in many endurance sports.

Question; how does a Piste Groomer groom a drop? Just wondering. Would
you have races in the terrain park? On the Big hill?

For me, I think XC will always be a marginal sport in the US. Maybe
that's ok. Someday a freakishly talented and charismatic person like
Lance or Becky Scott will come forward and capture our imagination. The
one race I would have run this year (for fun) kept getting rescheduled,
I lost track. It is hard to get a sport rolling when you can't even
set a date. We need some man made snow and a contained track so that
promoters can count on the event happening. How else can you get the
even the local Mom and Pop businesses to sponsor signage and feeding
stations?
It's tough.

The rest of the world views sports differently than us. I mean look at
Auto Cross - they line the back roads by the tens of thousands to
watch, just like Le Tour. I hear the Swedes will show up in the
thousands to watch Orienteering.

Americans like a corporate package - Golf, Tennis, Football,
Baseball.....stadiums, coke, Chevy, hard to get us to line the woods
and cheer for EVERYONE that goes by.

Skateboarding may have been grassroots but it is dominated by THE
demographic.

Who knows, XC may just be the next big thing.

/john

Here in northern Wisconsin, mtb racing is on the decline. We lost the
'Northwest Series'. Minnesota had some problems too, not sure what is
happening over there.
I decided not to race mtb this year, there was a constant cry for 'more
single track'. Unfortunately the race promoters responded. Now the courses
are so technical, they are like trials courses. I fear for my health and
decided it is not worth it to bounce off rock lined single track at 30 mph
with trees whipping past the end of the handlebars, missing (hopefully) by
1/2".

XC skiing is a bargain. Ironman triathlon entries are $450. Local races are
$60-75.

Paul Haltvick
Bay Design and Build - LLC
Engineering, Construction and Information Technology Services
FSx - Fischer / Swix Racing



"jgs" wrote in message
ups.com...
Jeff,
You are right.
One of my problems is I am not a spectator. If I see an event on TV I
am actually motivated to go out and do something my self. I am not
likely to go watch any event and I get restless watching sports on TV.
Kind of like what is up with pro soccer? They play to nearly empty
stands. Is it because all everyone who likes soccer is out playing
soccer?
CycloCross is sport that seems to survive despite being off on the
margins. I think you are almost talking about Fat Ass type racing.

/john

For the most part, if you want to pass in a skating race, you have to
have some cooperation from the person you're passing. There's
exceptions, like the Birkie course, but skating on a 6' wide trail is
considered a narrow trail. So if you make a comparison to road biking,
skating races are like biking with 6' wide handlebars on a single lane
road.

My point is, that passing is difficult in mass start races when the
competitors are of similar ability. So to make skiing races like
cycling races is hard unless you have 40 foot wide trails. Also, I
don't think skiers could compete day after day like a Giro or Tour. Ski
racing produces a lot of lactic acid, and I'm guessing that's why.

Never underestimate how smart (or stupid) a viewer is. I think that if
viewers are interested, they can figure out individual start races.
Hell, they can figure out football rules. I really like watching the
individual start races, and actually, I really look forward to skiing
in individual start races also. I wish the TC Championships was still
going.

Jay Wenner

Gene, when I started racing (at age 29), mass starts were the way. My
first race was the Birkie, and after completing a couple of those, I
added the Pepsi and Pre-Birkie. Then I skied the TC Championships which
was a true pursuit race (interval start by twos) and loved it. A few
years ago Murphy had an interval start race and about 5 of us finished
within 15 seconds.

Of course interval start races have their own problems. I had an early
starat on a very cold day, and a few extra degrees probably would have
helped the glide. There's falling snow and in long races and pack
tactics by people who started at different times.

Jay

I've only skied a few but old style pursuits like Jay mentions are a blast.
When I lived in MT we had a two day pusuit wiht Skate the first day followed
by classic in the pursuit portion. It was nice for me because at the time I
was a much better classic skier than skater and could pick quite a few
people off.

I've only done a handful on interval start races since then and they truly
are an whole different animal than a mass start. In the relatively small
nordic community, I usually can recognize people and tend to pace off of
them. When you do an interval start it's all up to you. I think they both
have their place and both take different skills.

Maybe they should mix up the duathlon and some skate then classic. Make the
skiers put their skis in the mix zone and if conditiond change, so be it.

DMK
"Bjorn A. Payne Diaz" wrote in message
oups.com...
Gene, when I started racing (at age 29), mass starts were the way. My
first race was the Birkie, and after completing a couple of those, I
added the Pepsi and Pre-Birkie. Then I skied the TC Championships which
was a true pursuit race (interval start by twos) and loved it. A few
years ago Murphy had an interval start race and about 5 of us finished
within 15 seconds.

Of course interval start races have their own problems. I had an early
starat on a very cold day, and a few extra degrees probably would have
helped the glide. There's falling snow and in long races and pack
tactics by people who started at different times.

Jay