Elk Pt./Sundance Utah Avalanche

In the 'Newbie in the Powder' thread, Chris refers to recent avalanches,
including one this past week at Elk Point by the Sundance resort. For
some right place at the right time photos by Bruce Tremper, see
http://www.avalanche.org/~uac/photos...Point_1-12-04/.
It's now being reported that this was a clearly marked area, with "You
Can Die" signs and skulls and crossbones, etc. It's believed that five
people were in there, with one having been found so far. An attribution
to "authorities" in a NYT article (Bruce Tremper not wanting to be
directly quoted?) says that while avalanches can occur naturally, 90%
are triggered by people.

Gene

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Hi Gene-
Just a quick note to let you know that you've got your avalanches confused. Right now we have the dubious distinction of "too many to keep track of." The Elk Point avalanche which you provided a link to, released Friday, but didn't catch anyone. Bruce and another fellow were out at Sundance taking pictures of the many OTHER slides that had released in the area (Provo canyon, access to Sundance, was closed at one point). They happened to have their cameras out and focused, and for avalanche professionals (and professional photographers), they won the lottery. But no humans were harmed in the making of those pictures.

On the other hand, the "Dutch's Draw" avalanche, which occurred just outside of the boundaries of "The Canyons" Ski Resort, released Saturday-- after a snowboarder jumped off a cliff/cornice on the ridge, basically into the gut of a very steep, windloaded bowl, and released the slide, engulfing himself and it sounds like (at this point), four other people. The Canyons is one of the Park City area resorts, located north of the Park City resort.

The biggest tragedy is the fact that it was a complete no-brainer for anyone with even the most rudimentary avalanche awareness that this bowl was going to slide, and go huge when it went. 7 feet of new snow in 10 days, laid down with howling winds alost the whole time. Windblown drifts of snow so evident in the bowl that it almost literally looked pregnant. Despite the fact that The Canyons has ropeline "gates" as backcountry access points (Dutch's, and several other fairly steep ridges, are accessible through these gates), with very explicit signage saying that you are leaving the control area and are assuming all risk, and literal "You Could Die" skull-and-crossbones signs, their strategy very clearly does not seem to be working. To date, 8 Canyons-ticketed skiiers/boarders have died in 3 separate incidents in the past 5 years. I've had my "social Darwinist" tendencies, but the fact that so many people are dying out of ignorance (we're up to 11 for the year in Utah n!
ow-- the
most "deadly" year in over 50 years), is a horrible waste, and is keeping avalanche people up at nights trying to figure out how to reach these people.

As far as "authorities" saying that 90% of slides are triggered by people, that's true, if not a somewhat low figure. Bruce Tremper, and anyone else who is trying to get the word out, is not shy about using that figure. Bruce has been quoted saying this many times, and I'm sure he'd love to be quoted even more if it would help get the word out to these knuckle-heads. Here are some other stats that are food for thought (the exact numbers might be a bit outdated, but they are essentially correct): If you are in a major slide and end up buried when things come to a stop, you only have about a 50% chance of being alive (the other 50% is your chances of getting wrapped around a tree, tossed over a cliff, or being simply snapped in two by the force of the slide). If you're buried under more than 5 feet of debris, you are highly likely to be dead when the snow stops. Assuming you're alive and breathing when everything settles down, your chances decrease by another 50% for eac!
h 1/2
hour you're buried.

I know this is pretty off-topic for RSN, but it's gotten me a bit worked up, I guess. 11 deaths and only 1/2 way through the season. I guess it's on-topic if any readers have friends/kids/etc. who are being lured to the backcountry by all the extreme ski films, Outside Magazine, etc. The simplest message that I've heard, which is the most essentially correct, is "Know before you Go."

whew-- I'm going skiing. Classic. On a nice safe groomed trail. That isn't under any big slopes!

Chris
Gene Goldenfeld wrote:
In the 'Newbie in the Powder' thread, Chris refers to recent avalanches,
including one this past week at Elk Point by the Sundance resort. For
some right place at the right time photos by Bruce Tremper, see
http://www.avalanche.org/~uac/photos...Point_1-12-04/.
It's now being reported that this was a clearly marked area, with "You
Can Die" signs and skulls and crossbones, etc. It's believed that five
people were in there, with one having been found so far. An attribution
to "authorities" in a NYT article (Bruce Tremper not wanting to be
directly quoted?) says that while avalanches can occur naturally, 90%
are triggered by people.

Gene






---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
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DIVHi Gene-/DIV
DIVJust a quick note to let you know that you've got your avalanches confused.  Right now we have the dubious distinction of "too many to keep track of."  The Elk Point avalanche which you provided a link to, released Friday, but didn't catch anyone.  Bruce and another fellow were out at Sundance taking pictures of the many OTHER slides that had released in the area (Provo canyon, access to Sundance, was closed at one point).  They happened to have their cameras out and focused, and for avalanche professionals (and professional photographers), they won the lottery.  But no humans were harmed in the making of those pictures./DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVOn the other hand, the "Dutch's Draw" avalanche, which occurred just outside of the boundaries of "The Canyons" Ski Resort, released Saturday-- after a snowboarder jumped off a cliff/cornice on the ridge, basically into the gut of a very steep, windloaded bowl, and released the slide, engulfing himself and it sounds like (at this point), four other people.  The Canyons is one of the Park City area resorts, located north of the Park City resort./DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVThe biggest tragedy is the fact that it was a complete no-brainer for anyone with even the most rudimentary avalanche awareness that this bowl was going to slide, and go huge when it went.  7 feet of new snow in 10 days, laid down with howling winds alost the whole time.  Windblown drifts of snow so evident in the bowl that it almost literally looked pregnant.  Despite the fact that The Canyons has ropeline "gates" as backcountry access points (Dutch's, and several other fairly steep ridges, are accessible through these gates), with very explicit signage saying that you are leaving the control area and are assuming all risk, and literal "You Could Die" skull-and-crossbones signs, their strategy very clearly does not seem to be working.  To date, 8 Canyons-ticketed skiiers/boarders have died in 3 separate incidents in the past 5 years.  I've had my "social Darwinist" tendencies, but the fact that so many people are dying out of ignorance (we!
're up to
11 for the year in Utah now-- the most "deadly" year in over 50 years), is a horrible waste, and is keeping avalanche people up at nights trying to figure out how to reach these people./DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVAs far as "authorities" saying that 90% of slides are triggered by people, that's true, if not a somewhat low figure.  Bruce Tremper, and anyone else who is trying to get the word out, is not shy about using that figure.  Bruce has been quoted saying this many times, and I'm sure he'd love to be quoted even more if it would help get the word out to these knuckle-heads.  Here are some other stats that are food for thought (the exact numbers might be a bit outdated, but they are essentially correct):  If you are in a major slide and end up buried when things come to a stop, you only have about a 50% chance of being alive (the other 50% is your chances of getting wrapped around a tree, tossed over a cliff, or being simply snapped in two by the force of the slide).  If you're buried under more than 5 feet of debris, you are highly likely to be dead when the snow stops.  Assuming you're alive and breathing when everything settles down, your!
chances
decrease by another 50% for each 1/2 hour you're buried.  /DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVI know this is pretty off-topic for RSN, but it's gotten me a bit worked up, I guess.  11 deaths and only 1/2 way through the season.  I guess it's on-topic if any readers have friends/kids/etc. who are being lured to the backcountry by all the extreme ski films, Outside Magazine, etc.  The simplest message that I've heard, which is the most essentially correct, is "Know before you Go."/DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVwhew-- I'm going skiing.  Classic.  On a nice safe groomed trail.  That isn't under any big slopes!/DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVChrisBRBIGene Goldenfeld >/I/B wrote:/DIV
BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"In the 'Newbie in the Powder' thread, Chris refers to recent avalanches,BRincluding one this past week at Elk Point by the Sundance resort. ForBRsome right place at the right time photos by Bruce Tremper, seeBRhttp://www.avalanche.org/~uac/photos...Point_1-12-04/. BRIt's now being reported that this was a clearly marked area, with "YouBRCan Die" signs and skulls and crossbones, etc. It's believed that fiveBRpeople were in there, with one having been found so far. An attributionBRto "authorities" in a NYT article (Bruce Tremper not wanting to beBRdirectly quoted?) says that while avalanches can occur naturally, 90%BRare triggered by people. BRBRGeneBRBRBRBRBR/BLOCKQUOTEp
hr size=1Do you Yahoo!?br
a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/virus/*http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail/static/protection.html"Yahoo! Mail/a - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
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To the writer of the above Group thread.
You will be delighted, as we were, to read the URL below.....something
we have been lobbying for for over 15 years in many states, Canada and
New Zealand.

As Sr NSPS/PSIA members we know the risks and the attitudes of the
amateur out-of-bounds adventurers who take those risks and force others
to do the same to extricate them from their folly.

We are already in conference calls with several State Governor's to
develop similar legislation for their states with Nevada as a model.
----------------------------------0---------------------------
MSNBC - Out-of-bounds skiing against the law in Douglas County From
MSNBC News Address:http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6826245/

Out-of-bounds skiing against the law in Douglas County KRNV-TV (Douglas
is on the NV-CA boundry.)
---------------------FYI on 1/15/05--------------------:
As you know out of bounds skiing is never a good idea and can be a fatal
one. A week from now, 1/20/05 it also will be an illegal one in Douglas
County, NV.
READTHIS:
Today is Sat 1/15/05
A new law that takes effect on Thursday, 1/20/05, making it against the
law to go outside the boundaries of ANY NORDIC or ALPINE skiing
area.

----------------------- Listen Up---------------------
Violating the law is a misdemeanor punishable by up to six months in
jail and a one-thousand dollar fine.

In addition, the new law states that any person who skis or rides out
of bounds is responsible for ALL search and rescue EXPENSES, which can
include the use of aircraft and specialized search teams.

(Copyright 2005 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
1/15/05 URL below:
Address:http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6826245/
--------------------------------0-------------------------
As the Governor knows were such a law enacted in Utah.....seven young
adventurers might still be with us. LH 1/18/05
-------------------------------------------------------------

"Aj 427" wrote in message
...
To the writer of the above Group thread.
You will be delighted, as we were, to read the URL below.....something
we have been lobbying for for over 15 years in many states, Canada and
New Zealand.
snip

I 'm just curious about this post.
Reading it from the other side of the water I can't suss out
if he's distressed, gloating or boasting about the subject.
Unable to trace any other posts from him (or her).
Mike