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what was 'the New Skate' ?



 
 
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  #11  
Old December 17th 03, 07:58 AM
Janne G
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Default what was 'the New Skate' ?

Ken Roberts wrote:

I guess it can be hard for skiers outside North America to see why there was
any need for a "new skate".

;-)
Janne G wrote
The only thing new in skating over the years that i have seen
is the development of (V2, 3 gear, double dance) skating tech
to be the dominant tech


I notice you avoid mentioning any significant change in V1 (offset, paddle
dance).


Ok, if we goes back as far as the beginning of the 90's then there have been a
gradual progress of honing the techs to perfection but not any clear cut other
than the (V2, 3 gear, double dance) break through as the dominant tech used.
Other tehcs just have been adjusted to use the muscles that been developed by
the dominant use of V2. Maybe we can say that the stoped use of "marathon skate"
is a clear cut also.....
I think that the "to be or not to be" "knee nose toe" discussion is comming
from the dominant use of V2 which in it self change the posture of the working
body and by that change the movment equation a little. What's right and whats
wrong
in that discussion i don't dear to elaborate on

I for my own say the same as Thomas Ahlsgaard said "just do it" with the diff that
you should try to experiment with all variants of tech that there are and find
whats working for you.

It's the same about DoublePush in inline skating, everybody says that they know
whats best, but the best in my opinion is variation of tech that suits the
situation
right at that moment. We all have to try what suits us in various situations,
what's
working for some don't have to work for you. Experimenting and experience is the
key
to the perfect tech.

--

Forward in all directions

Janne G
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  #13  
Old December 17th 03, 02:16 PM
Jeff Potter
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Default what was 'the New Skate' ?

Janne G wrote:

[ ]
I think that the "to be or not to be" "knee nose toe" discussion is comming
from the dominant use of V2 which in it self change the posture of the working
body and by that change the movment equation a little. What's right and whats
wrong
in that discussion i don't dear to elaborate on


In my efforts to really hone in on the V2 in rollerskiing this year, I've found that
there are indeed essential posture differences from V1A. It's not just a different
tempo. The Norgi tapes talk about the same posture used in ALL techniques, and
they're probably right to a degree, or maybe they're more right as one becomes elite,
but for me I find that the speed comes out when I've made some fairly big changes.

I for my own say the same as Thomas Ahlsgaard said "just do it" with the diff that
you should try to experiment with all variants of tech that there are and find
whats working for you.


That's why I say you need to test via TimeTrials to see if various bright ideas are
working. Feel is probably a good indicator. But the clock might be better.

Like in my one report on my long medium hill workout: my times to the top with V1,
V1A, V2 were all basically the same! Heartrate was higher with V2, muscle stress felt
greater with V1. In real life, I think I'll do what I always have: use whatever seems
fastest when I'm on the trail!!!

It's the same about DoublePush in inline skating, everybody says that they know
whats best,


I recall that DP is now only used by half the racers, that winners and top people do
'regular' skate just as often now. It's not always faster or even faster at all for
everyone. Is that right?

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself culture...
...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
...rare books on ski, bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller
about smalltown smuggling ... radical novels coming up!
...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
plus national travel forums! HOLY SMOKES! 800-763-6923


  #14  
Old December 17th 03, 02:18 PM
Jeff Potter
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Default what was 'the New Skate' ?

More than a hobby. A whole new kind of watercoolering.

"Sly D. Skeez" wrote:

Anyway, when I hear the group discuss technique at length, is it
really that complicated? Do runners discuss running technique in such
depth? I can see the value of getting yourself video taped and trying
a few new things, but trying to analyze it to such depth seems like a
whole hobby in itself.


--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself culture...
...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
...rare books on ski, bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller
about smalltown smuggling ... radical novels coming up!
...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
plus national travel forums! HOLY SMOKES! 800-763-6923


  #15  
Old December 17th 03, 07:51 PM
Marsh Jones
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Default what was 'the New Skate' ?

Sly D. Skeez wrote:
(Chris Cline) wrote in message oo.com...

--0-1413041232-1071595423=:14738
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Based on what I noticed while teaching a ski clinic last night, I


agree with the "compromise" position. My one concern about the "new
skate" with newer/"weaker"/ less accomplished skiers, is the emphasis
on cadence. I think it would be easy for a less technically
proficient skiier to have a fast cadence, but always be _between their
skis_, rather than rapidly transferring their weight from ski to ski.

[snip]
Jay Wenner

We've several brand new skiers on our high school team this year, and
the two biggest 'sins' I see are never transferring weight onto one ski
(wide stance, inside edges) and 'bucket butting' from not using the
torso to initiate poling. There's a lot more to it than that, but the
combination of never getting on one ski and arm-poling seems to raise
the cadence without raising speed.
If I analyze it correctly, the failure to commit to a ski means you get
a very short poor push off the power ski, and lots of friction due to a
small running surface on the glide ski; coupled with a very short,
choppy pole and an almost terminal inability to catch up to the skis
since your weight is so far back and down. That means you never do get
your arms out in a powerful initiate position, which re-inforces the
whole cycle.

Marsh Jones

  #16  
Old December 17th 03, 08:28 PM
Ken Roberts
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Default what was 'the New Skate' ?

Skiing is one of the most beautiful things we humans do, and one of the most
wonderful things we can feel.

It's great to spend time trying to understand it more deeply. It's great to
be able to theorize a new way to use a muscle, and then go out and _feel_ it
engaged in my actual skiing. It's fascinating to try to connect my
subjective feelings with objective video clip. Fun to try out new mental
images that people suggest on this newsgroup, even when I don't get the
physics yet.

If ski technique were only about "tell me the right motion to use to go
faster in a race", that would get boring for me real quick.

I got into skiing when I was doing grad-school research on robotic
perception and control. As I tried to program a multi-finger robot hand and
arm to do even simple tasks, it hit me that _human_ perception and control
is so much more interesting. And why let the robot be the one to have the
fun of executing the motion?

Then I spent lots of years analyzing (and doing) downhill skiing and
telemark and backcountry exploring. Four years ago, Sharon got into
groomed-track XC skiing, and to my surprise I've found that the techniques
for this are also fascinating.

Ski technique analysis as a hobby for me offers the fun of doing research --
but way better than grad school: It's a topic that I can still love a year
after I chose it. I can give it up any time I want. I don't have to write
a dissertation.

Ken
_________________________________
Jay Wenner wrote
I can see the value of getting yourself video taped and
trying a few new things, but trying to analyze it to such
depth seems like a whole hobby in itself.



  #17  
Old December 17th 03, 08:32 PM
Ken Roberts
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Default what was 'the New Skate' ?

The physics and biomechanics of cross country skiing are way more
complicated than running:

-- skiing makes serious propulsive use of arms -- and abdominal muscles --
and back -- and other muscles -- not just legs. Even the leg muscles are
used in a second propulsive mode unknown to running. Coordinating all
that -- timing, positions -- is a whole other dimension of control than in
running.

-- some of those kinds of muscular propulsion are in conflict with others,
So working out compromises that are vaguely optimal is yet another thing.

-- we've got some basic genetically-given "programming" (or at least
programming "templates") to help us with walking and running. I find it
hard to believe there was any evolutionary selection pressure in favor of
programming for skating or poling.

-- skating has a strong 3-Dimensional aspect. Running is mostly
2-Dimensional.

-- classic striding requires attention to getting both grip and glide on the
same foot.

It's a fascinating intellectual problem -- but it's also fun to do it and
feel it.

Ken
_____________________________________________
Jay Wenner wrote
when I hear the group discuss technique at length, is it
really that complicated? Do runners discuss running
technique in such depth? . . .




  #18  
Old December 17th 03, 10:05 PM
Rob Bradlee
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Default what was 'the New Skate' ?


-- we've got some basic genetically-given "programming" (or at least
programming "templates") to help us with walking and running. I find
it
hard to believe there was any evolutionary selection pressure in
favor of
programming for skating or poling.


Ah, Ken, you're just not going far enough back in evolution. With
poles we return to quadripedal locomotion. Those lats were useful for
swinging through the trees, but before that they were for running on
all fours. I'm sure that Thomas Alsgaard's four-legged ancestors
survived a chase by using both front and rear legs for maximum speed.

(It is an interesting intellectual puzzle isn't it? For example, why
do we derive pleasure from skiing? Did we evolve to enjoy swinging
through the trees and flying along on skis simulates that? There is a
deep, primal satisfaction from skiing - why is that?)

Rob Bradlee





  #19  
Old December 18th 03, 07:21 AM
Janne G
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Posts: n/a
Default what was 'the New Skate' ?

Jeff Potter wrote:

Janne G wrote:

[ ]
I think that the "to be or not to be" "knee nose toe" discussion is comming
from the dominant use of V2 which in it self change the posture of the working
body and by that change the movment equation a little. What's right and whats
wrong
in that discussion i don't dear to elaborate on


In my efforts to really hone in on the V2 in rollerskiing this year, I've found that
there are indeed essential posture differences from V1A. It's not just a different
tempo. The Norgi tapes talk about the same posture used in ALL techniques, and
they're probably right to a degree, or maybe they're more right as one becomes elite,
but for me I find that the speed comes out when I've made some fairly big changes.


Can it be because they need more muscles in certain places to start changing the
posture?
I have found out that i can't use my back doing V2 compared to classic sking or
all other
skating techniques due to the arm tempo is so much higher in V2. BUT i have also
seen that
i have a more upright posture in all skating techs now days since i started to do
mostly
V2. The only time i use my back to a large degree is going uphill where all
muscles count...

I for my own say the same as Thomas Ahlsgaard said "just do it" with the diff that
you should try to experiment with all variants of tech that there are and find
whats working for you.


That's why I say you need to test via TimeTrials to see if various bright ideas are
working. Feel is probably a good indicator. But the clock might be better.

Like in my one report on my long medium hill workout: my times to the top with V1,
V1A, V2 were all basically the same! Heartrate was higher with V2, muscle stress felt
greater with V1. In real life, I think I'll do what I always have: use whatever seems
fastest when I'm on the trail!!!


To get something out of a new tech you have to do it for some time to get used to
it and
develop the muscles that are used for that speciallity to get something usefull
out
of a time trail. Not jump into it for fun for one session and from that draw the
master thesis on whats right or wrong for you. It takes time to get used to and to
deside on whats right for you.

It's the same about DoublePush in inline skating, everybody says that they know
whats best,


I recall that DP is now only used by half the racers, that winners and top people do
'regular' skate just as often now. It's not always faster or even faster at all for
everyone. Is that right?


My back have thought me some lessions about inline racing this summer (i have
stoped
doing it serius) so i can't say that much about it now. But from my point of view
i would say that Dp is great to conserve energy and still going fast but i use
classical stride going steep uphill and also in fast burst of sprints. So i
combine
all techs, and Dp isn't one tech, it's a varite of "gears" just like there are in
XC-skating or skiing. So if you don't master all the "gears" you can't get all out
of
the tech and therefore switch over to classical stride again and say "it don't
work".

--

Forward in all directions

Janne G
  #20  
Old December 18th 03, 02:35 PM
Jeff Potter
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Default what was 'the New Skate' ?

YEAH!

Good thoughts, Rob.

And, Jay, really it seems like skiing is more technical than skating so
quite a bit of detail is in order. Now, a good coach is the actual answer,
but at least we TRY here. I think I've actually been helped by our minutae
a few times. And who knows whose tiny detail is going to be something big
for someone? As I recall, I think that someone's report about a lady coach
saying to kick the heel to the side and FORWARD when skating helped me
keep my foot down A LOT. We'll see if it helps my SPEED, but I believe
that was a good tip I got here in infinite-detail-land.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself culture...
...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
...rare books on ski, bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller
about smalltown smuggling ... radical novels coming up!
...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
plus national travel forums! HOLY SMOKES! 800-763-6923


 




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