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Non-standard rollerski designs, your opinions/idea's?



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 16th 06, 04:37 PM
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Default Non-standard rollerski designs, your opinions/idea's?

Since I've been researching what rollerski's to buy or even which to have
made (budgetary reasons) I've recently come across these :

http://www.rolec.ch/

and these :

http://www.siriro-shop.de/pd10948203...rch0_EQ_Blau%2
0eloxiert_AND_search1_EQ_ohne%20Bindung_AND_{EOL}& categoryId=0

Both sport 4 wheels per ski, supposedly for extra speed in racing, and a
more snow-like feel (they sure are long for skating rollerski's). The speed
I can see, inliner skaters also seem to prefer 5x84mm over 4x84mm for
racing, even if the wheelbase remains the same.

I am especially intriqued with the Siriro Double Quatro's, obviously. Not a
lot of technical info there on how it works, but it looks like the pairs of
wheels sit on a centre pivoting swing arm. I did a little sketch, and it
seems that if there's a 1cm tall obstacle to roll over, the individual bumps
on the frame (pivot point between the front wheels) are just 0,5cm each.
Might be a nice way to get better roll-over ability without larger wheels
than the apparently max 100mm allowed in racing, smart stuff!

Do people actually race or train such 4-wheelers, apart from the sponsored
athletes shown on the Rolec website? How do they compare to the lighter and
seemingly globally popular super-short 2-wheelers?

I'm not really interested in trying a 4-wheel design as my first set of
proper rollerski's (I'm on 10" wheeled Crosskates now), but these advanced
technical aspects do intrigue me.

Your thoughts on these and other "odd" designs out there, please? Any idea
why the Siriro's have 2 differently sized wheels per pair?


For now I'm still most interested in getting a 2-wheel 150mm pneumatic
setup, with extra axle holes for 125mm, 100mm, or even smaller wheels. I've
seen slow 100mm rubber wheels which might be nice for lightweight resistance
training. 150mm tubeless air wheels would be for endurance/technique
workouts over varying road surfaces (copycat of like the V2 Aero 150). 145mm
85A PU wheels might be fun for the occasional silly-fast workout, setting
fast times around my time trial courses, or skiing along friends on bikes.
200x40mm PU scooter wheels exist as well, but will be harder to get to fit a
stiff rollerski to without raising the ride height.
It will be hard to incorporate on the same 2-wheel frame, but perhaps a
setup as the Siriro with two 150mm or even 250mm front wheels and a single
10-14" rear wheel might make for a potent off-road set, weight be damned. I
like that swing arm idea and the halved weight and movement on the front
wheels, and the possibly increased rolling speed over soft soil. My
Crosskates are supposed to be the mountainbikes of rollerski's, but really
roll like crap offroad. I think it can be improved upon for true XC skating
over flowing fire roads I wish were snowed over all winter. Yes it will be
heavy, but my Crosskates are 7.4kg including boots now. Like a road bike on
my feet, and I handle that just fine.
A man can dream?

Happy Easter from Holland,

J


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  #2  
Old April 16th 06, 05:25 PM
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Default


Jan Gerrit Klok wrote:
Since I've been researching what rollerski's to buy or even which to have
made (budgetary reasons) I've recently come across these :

http://www.rolec.ch/

and these :

http://www.siriro-shop.de/pd10948203...rch0_EQ_Blau%2
0eloxiert_AND_search1_EQ_ohne%20Bindung_AND_{EOL}& categoryId=0

Both sport 4 wheels per ski, supposedly for extra speed in racing, and a
more snow-like feel (they sure are long for skating rollerski's). The speed
I can see, inliner skaters also seem to prefer 5x84mm over 4x84mm for
racing, even if the wheelbase remains the same.

I am especially intriqued with the Siriro Double Quatro's, obviously. Not a
lot of technical info there on how it works, but it looks like the pairs of
wheels sit on a centre pivoting swing arm. I did a little sketch, and it
seems that if there's a 1cm tall obstacle to roll over, the individual bumps
on the frame (pivot point between the front wheels) are just 0,5cm each.
Might be a nice way to get better roll-over ability without larger wheels
than the apparently max 100mm allowed in racing, smart stuff!

Do people actually race or train such 4-wheelers, apart from the sponsored
athletes shown on the Rolec website? How do they compare to the lighter and
seemingly globally popular super-short 2-wheelers?

I'm not really interested in trying a 4-wheel design as my first set of
proper rollerski's (I'm on 10" wheeled Crosskates now), but these advanced
technical aspects do intrigue me.

Your thoughts on these and other "odd" designs out there, please? Any idea
why the Siriro's have 2 differently sized wheels per pair?


For now I'm still most interested in getting a 2-wheel 150mm pneumatic
setup, with extra axle holes for 125mm, 100mm, or even smaller wheels. I've
seen slow 100mm rubber wheels which might be nice for lightweight resistance
training. 150mm tubeless air wheels would be for endurance/technique
workouts over varying road surfaces (copycat of like the V2 Aero 150). 145mm
85A PU wheels might be fun for the occasional silly-fast workout, setting
fast times around my time trial courses, or skiing along friends on bikes.
200x40mm PU scooter wheels exist as well, but will be harder to get to fit a
stiff rollerski to without raising the ride height.
It will be hard to incorporate on the same 2-wheel frame, but perhaps a
setup as the Siriro with two 150mm or even 250mm front wheels and a single
10-14" rear wheel might make for a potent off-road set, weight be damned. I
like that swing arm idea and the halved weight and movement on the front
wheels, and the possibly increased rolling speed over soft soil. My
Crosskates are supposed to be the mountainbikes of rollerski's, but really
roll like crap offroad. I think it can be improved upon for true XC skating
over flowing fire roads I wish were snowed over all winter. Yes it will be
heavy, but my Crosskates are 7.4kg including boots now. Like a road bike on
my feet, and I handle that just fine.
A man can dream?

Happy Easter from Holland,

J


Hi Jan,

I have a set of Swenor combi with small (55mm?) ratchet wheels.
Standard design 2 wheels per ski. One thing I don't like about 2 wheel
is the susceptibility to stopping on cracks. I have only used them a
few times, so I am far from an expert, but they sure felt rough and
problematic on bad surfaces. Your big-wheeled cross-skates may be
masking the problems of only two wheels on rough surfaces just because
they are so big. Or maybe your surfaces are smooth enough not to
matter.

I see lots of people around here roller skiing past my house, so I
guess it doesn't bother them, but I'm still a bit chicken particularly
on descents.

I wonder if the "Doppel Quattro" ones sort of defeat the stability of
having 4 wheels?

I know I am much more comfortable (mentally) on my cheap-o department
store inlines than I am on my roller skis. I think is from the 4 wheels
vs 2. The front wheel of the skate doesn't drop down into every crack
like the roller skis do.

After your cross-skates, smaller harder wheeled roller skis may seem
very harsh on all but the best surfaces.

The cross skates look really cool. Lots of dirt roads around here that
would suit tthem well. Let me know if you ever want to get rid of them!

Joseph

  #3  
Old April 16th 06, 07:40 PM
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Hey Joseph,

I know I am much more comfortable (mentally) on my cheap-o department
store inlines than I am on my roller skis. I think is from the 4 wheels
vs 2. The front wheel of the skate doesn't drop down into every crack
like the roller skis do.

I had not thought of that before, smart thinking!
The Siriro's most front wheel probably would get into the crack, but with
less weight on it might get stuck less severely. And I can't get over this :
the front of the ski drops only half the crack depth, less impact on the
foot, and easier to roll out of it. Then, 2-wheelers half to conquer
obstacles twice, these four times.

After your cross-skates, smaller harder wheeled roller skis may seem
very harsh on all but the best surfaces.

I do fear this. The 150's should be okay though, I'm running a tad more than
the allowed 60psi in these fatties, which makes them pretty harsh already.
Off-road and on bad surfaces I notice they should be aired down for best
roll-over performance. But right now my main objective is to stay as close
to my buddy on high-end 4x80mm rollerblades as possible. He says with
tailwind I lose only 2kph, with headwind 7kph. I blaim my height and lack of
V2 for this. Working on V2, it's worth it with headwind it seems, but a
sucker to excecuted correctly. But it won't be long before I manage to go
faster against the wind with V2 than with V2alt. My arms hate V2 though.

The cross skates look really cool. Lots of dirt roads around here that
would suit tthem well. Let me know if you ever want to get rid of them!

I only have size 9 and 13 proprietary boots with mine, they don't fit proper
boots. That feature was planned vor version 2 that never happened. Like
faster/ligher road tires, unfortunately.


  #4  
Old April 17th 06, 03:50 AM
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Default

Jan:

Those four wheel skis look interesting, but they may be for the Euro
roller racing market, especially the first one. Jenex has or had some
similar, and with their Black Mamba wheels I'm sure they were very
quick.

I'm more interested in realistic snow speed and resistance, so my Aeros
fit the bill very well there. Inline skate racers travel twice as fast
(26 vs. 13mph), but that's not what I want.

We saw some beautiful hard wheel skate roller skis with spring
suspension and interchangable springs in Norway two years ago. Don't
recall the name.

Randy

  #5  
Old April 17th 06, 06:20 AM
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schreef in bericht
ups.com...
I'm more interested in realistic snow speed and resistance, so my Aeros
fit the bill very well there.


I don't think I have a use for such long and fast glides myself, but the
science behind it does intrigue me a lot. I too just want simple rollerski's
to log miles on, skating as close to snow conditions as possible. But as I
get used to the skating, speed does grow some attraction.

I just drew up a sketch of a rollerski with three 150mm wheels, 2 in front
mounted like on the Siriro's. The rear could be either a single 150mm for
ease of construction, two 150's for optical balance, or one really large
wheel. I'm trying to figure out what options there are in the
bicycle/trailer market, 12" or 14" might be fun if gotten to work. Bike
technology (tensioned spokes) might make for a light and strong wheel.
The front wheel pair might make for a really effective speed reducer mounted
on the swing arm, being forced vertically down right in between both wheels,
slowing them doen both. Might make for a light solution with double
efficiency?
With a third 150mm wheel, and the front two "suspended", actual
offroad-ability might be a lot better.

I wonder what an extra rear wheel would do, mounted directly next and on the
outside on the existing one. Dead weight turning freely during most of the
skate motion? Helpful while double poling? No idea how that would affect
turning, but I'm sure it would.

We saw some beautiful hard wheel skate roller skis with spring
suspension and interchangable springs in Norway two years ago. Don't
recall the name.

I've seen some with LOTS of suspension travel, the boots really up high
above the trial. It looked very mean, but also impossible to skate forward.
Perhaps the spring kick-back is supposed to make it skate-able.


  #6  
Old April 17th 06, 08:44 AM
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The rollerskis you saw are the dynaskate DS600SE I have been on them for 3
years and highly recommend them. They are pricey at 3,299 KR ($500) with
bindings, but give an excellent ski like feel and, because of the dual
suspension, ride well over rough roads (chipseal included). They have a
model with only one suspension spring in the front that is cheaper, but I
have no experience with that model. I have them set up with Marwe 100mm
wheels which are very durable (3,000 miles) and medium speed, but you can
use most 100mm wheels to adjust speed. You can see them at
www.dynasports.com .

The FrontRunner


wrote in message
ups.com...
Jan:

Those four wheel skis look interesting, but they may be for the Euro
roller racing market, especially the first one. Jenex has or had some
similar, and with their Black Mamba wheels I'm sure they were very
quick.

I'm more interested in realistic snow speed and resistance, so my Aeros
fit the bill very well there. Inline skate racers travel twice as fast
(26 vs. 13mph), but that's not what I want.

We saw some beautiful hard wheel skate roller skis with spring
suspension and interchangable springs in Norway two years ago. Don't
recall the name.

Randy



  #7  
Old April 17th 06, 10:53 AM
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Posts: n/a
Default


FrontRunner wrote:
The rollerskis you saw are the dynaskate DS600SE I have been on them for 3
years and highly recommend them. They are pricey at 3,299 KR ($500) with
bindings, but give an excellent ski like feel and, because of the dual
suspension, ride well over rough roads (chipseal included). They have a
model with only one suspension spring in the front that is cheaper, but I
have no experience with that model. I have them set up with Marwe 100mm
wheels which are very durable (3,000 miles) and medium speed, but you can
use most 100mm wheels to adjust speed. You can see them at
www.dynasports.com .

The FrontRunner


Those look very interesting. How much do you weigh? What sort of
surfaces do you ski on?

Joseph




wrote in message
ups.com...
Jan:

Those four wheel skis look interesting, but they may be for the Euro
roller racing market, especially the first one. Jenex has or had some
similar, and with their Black Mamba wheels I'm sure they were very
quick.

I'm more interested in realistic snow speed and resistance, so my Aeros
fit the bill very well there. Inline skate racers travel twice as fast
(26 vs. 13mph), but that's not what I want.

We saw some beautiful hard wheel skate roller skis with spring
suspension and interchangable springs in Norway two years ago. Don't
recall the name.

Randy


  #8  
Old April 18th 06, 12:29 AM
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Posts: n/a
Default

Jan:

Man, I think with all those wheels you'll aproach the weight of your
Crosskates. I'm really dubious of any roller skis ever being very
useful off-road, except perhaps on smooth grass like golf courses.
How well do the Crosskates do?

I've got one and maybe two solutions for off-road. First, Catskis.
See 'em at Catskier.com or planetxc.com. I've owned two pair; the
originals, and the much better second generation. Great classic
diagonal stride (only) intense workout. I like 'em best on a big
soccer field, or several next to each other, but they will go over just
about anything. On level ground it always feels like you're climbing a
noticable grade. I usually avoid hills, not because it's not a great
intereval climbing, but because going down you still have to diagonal
stride, and it's worthless, both technique and effort wise. Especially
nice for after dark workouts.

The other idea I haven't yet tried. I bought some used Italian
Rolskis, which I think were also called Grasskis. They were sold as a
way to downhill ski in the summer. Think of miniature free-rolling
tank treads with a platform over the middle for bindings. They feel
ather heavy, and the platform is probably at least two inches off the
ground, but I'm hoping they may function okay as off-road skate skis.
I'll let you know when I get around to them.

Randy

  #9  
Old April 18th 06, 09:06 AM
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I'm about 170lbs. They provide three sets of springs with the skis. I am
using the medium set-up, but you could adjust depending on weight. I ski
country roads with varying degrees of pavement some smooth to quite rough.
The primary road resurfacing technique around here is chip seal. Depending
on the amount of traffic it takes 2 to 3 years after the dreaded treatment
before the road is skiable again.

The FrontRunner

wrote in message
ups.com...

FrontRunner wrote:
The rollerskis you saw are the dynaskate DS600SE I have been on them for
3
years and highly recommend them. They are pricey at 3,299 KR ($500) with
bindings, but give an excellent ski like feel and, because of the dual
suspension, ride well over rough roads (chipseal included). They have a
model with only one suspension spring in the front that is cheaper, but I
have no experience with that model. I have them set up with Marwe 100mm
wheels which are very durable (3,000 miles) and medium speed, but you can
use most 100mm wheels to adjust speed. You can see them at
www.dynasports.com .

The FrontRunner


Those look very interesting. How much do you weigh? What sort of
surfaces do you ski on?

Joseph




wrote in message
ups.com...
Jan:

Those four wheel skis look interesting, but they may be for the Euro
roller racing market, especially the first one. Jenex has or had some
similar, and with their Black Mamba wheels I'm sure they were very
quick.

I'm more interested in realistic snow speed and resistance, so my Aeros
fit the bill very well there. Inline skate racers travel twice as fast
(26 vs. 13mph), but that's not what I want.

We saw some beautiful hard wheel skate roller skis with spring
suspension and interchangable springs in Norway two years ago. Don't
recall the name.

Randy




  #10  
Old April 18th 06, 11:29 AM
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Posts: n/a
Default

schreef in bericht
ups.com...
I've got one and maybe two solutions for off-road. First, Catskis.
See 'em at Catskier.com or planetxc.com.


The other idea I haven't yet tried. I bought some used Italian
Rolskis, which I think were also called Grasskis. They were sold as a
way to downhill ski in the summer. Think of miniature free-rolling
tank treads with a platform over the middle for bindings. They feel
ather heavy, and the platform is probably at least two inches off the
ground, but I'm hoping they may function okay as off-road skate skis.
I'll let you know when I get around to them.



Randy,

The Grasskis look interesting
http://timefortuckerman.com/photopos...&password=&sor
t=1&size=medium&cat=616&page=
I wonder how effcient they are though.

Catski's seem a great solution for classic skiers. I'm just not into that
very much, and think my Crosskates could handle that just fine, if I cared
for it. The whole movement doesn't work with my sense of balance, while
skating seems pretty natural to me. I feel fluent, and people comment on it
looking natural and fluent. I do realize I most likely look like a total
noob to experienced skiers.

I run the crosskates at high pressure to get some sort of snow-like speeds
from them on pavement. At least, I hope I'll manage such speeds on snow.
It's well below Worldcup level, obviously.
With the hard tires, the slightest obstacle or bump stops them dead. What
doesn't help I think, is the high boot position (who need ground clearance,
really, we're not attacking rockgardens or root fields) combined with my
tall height. 610mm wheelbase just isn't much, I bet I could handle 10cm
more, the front wheel moved forward. Less weight on the front wheel, and
less leverage to send me flying.
I think I could be much faster with the 240m wheels, if they'd have nicer
tires/tubes and were a stiffer whole. The pivoting front wheels gave my butt
more than once, but kill the efficiency of my skate, they're like a brake
that engages when I load one skate with my full weight, let alone push off.
Too much technology for XC, but great for alpine I'm sure.

Yes, two extra 150mm wheels would add weight over the V2 Aero 150's, and
perhaps indeed with all the linkages come close to or match the Crosskates.
But that's okay. Some rolling will be worth the weight. I CAN handle the
Crosskates weight, quite well really, and a bit more wouldn't be disastrous
either, as long as I get some speed from it. Just too bad for climbing
practice.
Being able to escape traffic and just ski over any dirt or fire road just
seems way cool, and as close to the snow experience as you can get. As a
mountainbiker I hardly enjoy pavement at all.

The Doppel Quatro technology seems like it could make all the difference in
making a wheelsize off-road capable. Less weight per wheel, and if it comes
across a bump or obstacle, it's got leverage on the rest of the ski to roll
over it, pure genious.
Not sure if it adds up that simply, but if you'd have a Doppel Duattro setup
on medium pressure 150mm wheels, it might roll faster than ordinary V2's on
pavement, and on dirt come close to the V's pavement speed. They'd be huge,
a bit over a meter long in total (4x150mm + spacing + size 13 boots), but
then, so am I.

Using technniques hardly more advanced than kid's scooter wheels
(one-dollar-tires) and home crafted frames, offroad skiing will probably
always be heavy and slow.
To get snow-like performance over low-traffic forrest roads may require more
expensive techiques such as MTB-quality tires and carbon fibre frame parts.
An example, though very affordable for it's seemingly high quality : the
?200 Powerslide Nordic Trainer
http://www.funbox-shop.de/shop_detail.asp?id=40771
big pic here :
http://www.sportobchod.cz/brusle-pow...ic-trainer.htm
With that technology level, a longer wheelbase, some extra or just much
larger wheels....I see a lot possible.
Just too bad about the huge ground clearance.



 




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