Which Run? (Blue/Red/Black)

I've just returned from holiday and despite being classified as a
intermediate-advanced skier, I found that I was happiest on the blue runs.
Notwithstanding the fact that the blues in Courmayeur are apparently more like
reds everywhere else, what are the requisites for each run?

One of my aims for the holiday was to learn how to carve. I found this very
easy on the blue runs but almost impossible on any red (due to the speed). As
far as this technique is concerned, I was happy on the blues.

However, the red runs are often referred to as 'intermediate' runs. Another
member of the party (who is a much weaker skiier than me) considered himself to
be an intermediate and would try as many red (and occasional black) runs as he
could find. On a couple of occasions, I went with him.

1. I noticed that the 'good' skiiers on the run were not making sharp turns.
Instead, they were following a vague slalom style. As I didn't know what was
ahead, I liked to keep my speed down and therefore found myself constantly
trying to slow down. I didn't enjoy this style of skiing which was made worse
by the hard-packed / icey conditions. Nonetheless, I was able to descend with
relative ease and control. My friend had adopted the same methods as myself but
seemed to enjoy this style of skiing.
- Given that neither of us were happy skiing 'properly' on these red runs,
should we have been on the blues? On the latter, I was able to make really nice
short and long turns but this didn't seem possible on the red while keeping my
speed low. I must stress that the red run was much harder than the reds I've
found in Scotland. In addition, the slopes at Courmayeur were very crowded so
the risk of hitting someone was very real - and did happen on a blue!

2. My friend wanted to try a few black runs. Since I knew that they would be
even worse than the reds, I didn't follow. Luckily we had radios so we could
split up! He was only able to traverse these runs very slowly and fell a lot of
the time. I didn't think that he should have been on them given that he hasn't
mastered basic turns yet - he leans far too far back (lifting the tips to
turn).

a) Was my technique wrong? I found that I was only able to slow down on the
reds by making a series of Christie stops. Due to the conditions, I think that
I was using around 4-5m of slope for each. I found this incredibly boring. In
essence, when people move on to a more difficult slope, should their speed
increase accordingly in order to maintain a good skiing style. Alternatively,
is it appropriate to constantly try to slow down.

b) Is it acceptable to be on runs which you cannot 'ski' but are able to
descend using the traversing technique? If my statement (above) regarding speed
on different runs is correct, then surely it is incredibly dangerous for
someone to be traversing on a black run since the proficient black run skiiers
will be moving extremely fast.

What's the general opinion?
Thanks
Niall

In my opinion, you should go on whichever pistes you feel happiest with.
Provided it's not dangerous, of course.

It's the rule (everywhere I've been, anyway) that the skier coming from
behind is responsible for avoiding any skier (s)he is about to overtake.
If you're slow on a red or black, it's their problem to avoid you, not
yours to avoid them.

If you or your friend find yourselves falling over, but yet still enjoy a
piste, that's probably good. You learn more from your mistakes than from
what you already do right.

If your friend enjoys pistes which are beyond his ability, and therefore you
think he may be a danger to other responsible skiers (stuff the irresponsible
ones), then try going at a less busy time, or to a quieter resort. Or get
some lessons, of course!

Adrian
--
Adrian Shaw ais@
Adran Cyfrifiadureg, Prifysgol Cymru, aber.
Aberystwyth, Ceredigion, Cymru ac.
http://users.aber.ac.uk/ais uk

Adrian D. Shaw wrote:
In my opinion, you should go on whichever pistes you feel happiest with.
Provided it's not dangerous, of course.

It's the rule (everywhere I've been, anyway) that the skier coming from
behind is responsible for avoiding any skier (s)he is about to overtake.
If you're slow on a red or black, it's their problem to avoid you, not
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It's their responsibility. It may well be your problem though!
Particularly on blues and easier reds....

yours to avoid them.

Plus the blacks are considerably less crowded than the blues, and
therefore safer in that respect.

Last week some of the blacks in 3V were considerably easier than some of
the reds (Suisse versus Dou du Midi springs to mind) due to being far
less skied out (and therefore icy).

Ben

"NIALLBRUCE" wrote in message
...
I've just returned from holiday and despite being classified as a
intermediate-advanced skier, I found that I was happiest on the blue runs.

Nothing wrong with that - do what makes you happy - it's supposed to be fun!

Notwithstanding the fact that the blues in Courmayeur are apparently more
like
reds everywhere else, what are the requisites for each run?

They make it up according to marketing demands.

One of my aims for the holiday was to learn how to carve. I found this
very
easy on the blue runs but almost impossible on any red (due to the speed).
As
far as this technique is concerned, I was happy on the blues.

Why does everyone seem to have this delusion that to be a good skier you
have to carve all the time?
Carving does not lose speed therefore carving on steeper slopes is
inappropriate unless you really want to go fast.

However, the red runs are often referred to as 'intermediate' runs.

That means that they are runs that an intermediate can ski not necessarily
runs that an intermediate would want to carve on.

Another
member of the party (who is a much weaker skiier than me) considered
himself to
be an intermediate and would try as many red (and occasional black) runs
as he
could find. On a couple of occasions, I went with him.

1. I noticed that the 'good' skiiers on the run were not making sharp
turns.
Instead, they were following a vague slalom style. As I didn't know what
was
ahead, I liked to keep my speed down and therefore found myself constantly
trying to slow down.

I believe that "short swing turns" is the usual term.
What you want to do is to make a lot of short skidding turns with a regular
rythm - you're speed will then stay more or less constant rather than keep
speeding up and slowing down. Don't even think about carving.

Try to make a turn just before any bend or blind hump such that you are on
the outside of the piste pointing in - When you see what is ahead you can
either turn down hill to pick up speed or side slip to a stop as the
condition demand.

I didn't enjoy this style of skiing which was made worse
by the hard-packed / icey conditions. Nonetheless, I was able to descend
with
relative ease and control.

I don't understand - If you could decend with ease and control then what is
the fuss?

My friend had adopted the same methods as myself but
seemed to enjoy this style of skiing.
- Given that neither of us were happy skiing 'properly' on these red runs,

There is no single "proper" way to ski. Completely different techniques are
required according to the conditions.
I think that this myth of the "one true way" arises from the way that the
ski schools "progress" their pupils according to a strict sequence and
without explaining when to use which technique.

should we have been on the blues? On the latter, I was able to make really
nice
short and long turns but this didn't seem possible on the red while
keeping my
speed low. I must stress that the red run was much harder than the reds
I've
found in Scotland. In addition, the slopes at Courmayeur were very crowded
so
the risk of hitting someone was very real - and did happen on a blue!

2. My friend wanted to try a few black runs. Since I knew that they would
be
even worse than the reds, I didn't follow. Luckily we had radios so we
could
split up! He was only able to traverse these runs very slowly and fell a
lot of
the time. I didn't think that he should have been on them given that he
hasn't
mastered basic turns yet - he leans far too far back (lifting the tips to
turn).

Give it a go - it's the best way to learn. On the other hand the MOST
important part of
skiing steeper slopes is leaning forward/down hill. If you are just going to
do flat traverses
with a panix turn at the end then there is not much point.


a) Was my technique wrong? I found that I was only able to slow down on
the
reds by making a series of Christie stops. Due to the conditions, I think
that
I was using around 4-5m of slope for each. I found this incredibly boring.
In
essence, when people move on to a more difficult slope, should their speed
increase accordingly in order to maintain a good skiing style.

No - they should go slower!

Alternatively,
is it appropriate to constantly try to slow down.

It is best to keep a fairly constant speed and rythm.


b) Is it acceptable to be on runs which you cannot 'ski' but are able to
descend using the traversing technique?

It's not a good idea because the traversing "technique" is lousy for two
main reasons:
1. You can't face your body down hill naturally if you are traversing and
this will lead to all sorts of problems with your weight distribution and
body position when you make the turn.
2. You end up having to do 180 degree turns which are not really easy for
anyone let alone beginners to do without picking up speed or losing style.
2b. You end up running out of piste width and being forced into a turn where
you don't really want to.

Contrast with something a bit more like a 90 degree zigzag: It is easier to
keep the shoulders facing down hill and your weight forward and you only
have to turn half the amount on each turn so you don't build up speed so
much. The only difficulty apart from fear is that you have to turn a lot
more often but you will soon see that its about the same number of turns for
a given vertical drop.

If my statement (above) regarding speed
on different runs is correct, then surely it is incredibly dangerous for
someone to be traversing on a black run since the proficient black run
skiiers
will be moving extremely fast.

Not really unless it's crowded - most proficient skiers wont be going
particularly fast on blacks and are unlikely to hit you because it is so
obvious where the traversers are going to turn - It's the easier runs that
are worse because beginners take such unpredictable lines.


What's the general opinion?
Thanks
Niall

"Greg Hilton" wrote in message
...
It really depends on you and what you want to acheive. You can carve on
red and black runs, in order to slow down you need to carry on carving
more than you would on the blues, so you carve back uphill, which slows
you down.

Yes but if you start and then carve to a stop you will find that you have
lost almost no height so what's the point?

It really depends on you and what you want to acheive. You can carve on
red and black runs, in order to slow down you need to carry on carving
more than you would on the blues, so you carve back uphill, which slows
you down. If you get this right, you will really accelerate through the
carve and can be travelling *very* fast, hence, IMHO you are right to
get the technique sussed on the blue runs.

If you don't want to carve you can skid your skis which will also slow
you down, or turn, traverse across the hill, but traverse slighlty up
the hill, which once again will slow you down.

This kind of thing you can practise at some of the indoor snow places.
You may want to take a lesson, as they can give you some exercises to
improve the correct movements and carving up hill etc. It is
theoretically possible to carve a full circle, I've not managed that
yet, but not tried it on small slalom skis.

I wouldn't get too hung up on colour classifications, ski what you are
comfortable with.

In one day a black run that has been freshly pisted can be 100% easier
than the same run that is heavily mogulled or icy!

cheers,

Greg

In my opinion whoever classified you as intermediate / advanced misled you a
little. ;-)

Snorer


"NIALLBRUCE" wrote in message
...
I've just returned from holiday and despite being classified as a
intermediate-advanced skier, I found that I was happiest on the blue runs.
Notwithstanding the fact that the blues in Courmayeur are apparently more
like
reds everywhere else, what are the requisites for each run?

One of my aims for the holiday was to learn how to carve. I found this
very
easy on the blue runs but almost impossible on any red (due to the speed).
As
far as this technique is concerned, I was happy on the blues.

However, the red runs are often referred to as 'intermediate' runs.
Another
member of the party (who is a much weaker skiier than me) considered
himself to
be an intermediate and would try as many red (and occasional black) runs
as he
could find. On a couple of occasions, I went with him.

1. I noticed that the 'good' skiiers on the run were not making sharp
turns.
Instead, they were following a vague slalom style. As I didn't know what
was
ahead, I liked to keep my speed down and therefore found myself constantly
trying to slow down. I didn't enjoy this style of skiing which was made
worse
by the hard-packed / icey conditions. Nonetheless, I was able to descend
with
relative ease and control. My friend had adopted the same methods as
myself but
seemed to enjoy this style of skiing.
- Given that neither of us were happy skiing 'properly' on these red runs,
should we have been on the blues? On the latter, I was able to make really
nice
short and long turns but this didn't seem possible on the red while
keeping my
speed low. I must stress that the red run was much harder than the reds
I've
found in Scotland. In addition, the slopes at Courmayeur were very crowded
so
the risk of hitting someone was very real - and did happen on a blue!

2. My friend wanted to try a few black runs. Since I knew that they would
be
even worse than the reds, I didn't follow. Luckily we had radios so we
could
split up! He was only able to traverse these runs very slowly and fell a
lot of
the time. I didn't think that he should have been on them given that he
hasn't
mastered basic turns yet - he leans far too far back (lifting the tips to
turn).

a) Was my technique wrong? I found that I was only able to slow down on
the
reds by making a series of Christie stops. Due to the conditions, I think
that
I was using around 4-5m of slope for each. I found this incredibly boring.
In
essence, when people move on to a more difficult slope, should their speed
increase accordingly in order to maintain a good skiing style.
Alternatively,
is it appropriate to constantly try to slow down.

b) Is it acceptable to be on runs which you cannot 'ski' but are able to
descend using the traversing technique? If my statement (above) regarding
speed
on different runs is correct, then surely it is incredibly dangerous for
someone to be traversing on a black run since the proficient black run
skiiers
will be moving extremely fast.

What's the general opinion?
Thanks
Niall

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:35:59 GMT, "Nick Hounsome"
wrote:


"Greg Hilton" wrote in message
...
It really depends on you and what you want to acheive. You can carve on
red and black runs, in order to slow down you need to carry on carving
more than you would on the blues, so you carve back uphill, which slows
you down.

Yes but if you start and then carve to a stop you will find that you have
lost almost no height so what's the point?

That's just not the case - there's always a significant loss of
momentum even if you're doing as 'pure' a carve as the skis allow,
just down to friction, plus if you are trying to bleed speed you'll
tend to skid a bit as well, particularly if you're coming to a virtual
halt.

--
Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
Ski Club of Great Britain - http://www.skiclub.co.uk
All opinions expressed are personal and in no way represent those of the Ski Club.

Haha.. exactly what I was thinking..

"Snorer" wrote in message
...
In my opinion whoever classified you as intermediate / advanced misled you
a
little. ;-)

Snorer


"NIALLBRUCE" wrote in message
...
I've just returned from holiday and despite being classified as a
intermediate-advanced skier, I found that I was happiest on the blue
runs.
Notwithstanding the fact that the blues in Courmayeur are apparently more
like
reds everywhere else, what are the requisites for each run?

One of my aims for the holiday was to learn how to carve. I found this
very
easy on the blue runs but almost impossible on any red (due to the
speed).
As
far as this technique is concerned, I was happy on the blues.

However, the red runs are often referred to as 'intermediate' runs.
Another
member of the party (who is a much weaker skiier than me) considered
himself to
be an intermediate and would try as many red (and occasional black) runs
as he
could find. On a couple of occasions, I went with him.

1. I noticed that the 'good' skiiers on the run were not making sharp
turns.
Instead, they were following a vague slalom style. As I didn't know what
was
ahead, I liked to keep my speed down and therefore found myself
constantly
trying to slow down. I didn't enjoy this style of skiing which was made
worse
by the hard-packed / icey conditions. Nonetheless, I was able to descend
with
relative ease and control. My friend had adopted the same methods as
myself but
seemed to enjoy this style of skiing.
- Given that neither of us were happy skiing 'properly' on these red
runs,
should we have been on the blues? On the latter, I was able to make
really
nice
short and long turns but this didn't seem possible on the red while
keeping my
speed low. I must stress that the red run was much harder than the reds
I've
found in Scotland. In addition, the slopes at Courmayeur were very
crowded
so
the risk of hitting someone was very real - and did happen on a blue!

2. My friend wanted to try a few black runs. Since I knew that they would
be
even worse than the reds, I didn't follow. Luckily we had radios so we
could
split up! He was only able to traverse these runs very slowly and fell a
lot of
the time. I didn't think that he should have been on them given that he
hasn't
mastered basic turns yet - he leans far too far back (lifting the tips to
turn).

a) Was my technique wrong? I found that I was only able to slow down on
the
reds by making a series of Christie stops. Due to the conditions, I think
that
I was using around 4-5m of slope for each. I found this incredibly
boring.
In
essence, when people move on to a more difficult slope, should their
speed
increase accordingly in order to maintain a good skiing style.
Alternatively,
is it appropriate to constantly try to slow down.

b) Is it acceptable to be on runs which you cannot 'ski' but are able to
descend using the traversing technique? If my statement (above) regarding
speed
on different runs is correct, then surely it is incredibly dangerous for
someone to be traversing on a black run since the proficient black run
skiiers
will be moving extremely fast.

What's the general opinion?
Thanks
Niall

On 21 Jan 2005 10:17:02 GMT, (NIALLBRUCE) wrote:

I've just returned from holiday and despite being classified as a
intermediate-advanced skier, I found that I was happiest on the blue runs.
Notwithstanding the fact that the blues in Courmayeur are apparently more like
reds everywhere else, what are the requisites for each run?


First, if you have to ask these questions, and based on what you say
about your skiing, most people would not class you as
"intermediate-advanced". I wouldn't class myself as that level yet,
but I'm much happier on the red & black slopes than you seem to be.

I'd also heard that the slopes at Courmayeur are not particularly
challenging, but I've never been there, so may be wrong.

One of my aims for the holiday was to learn how to carve. I found this very
easy on the blue runs but almost impossible on any red (due to the speed). As
far as this technique is concerned, I was happy on the blues.


That makes sense. Carving is "better" aesthetically, and it is better
if you want speed. It is NOT better if you want to easily control your
speed.

The steeper the slope, the more you need to control your speed, so the
less you will want to carve, at least on slopes within the capacity of
an intermediate skier.

However, the red runs are often referred to as 'intermediate' runs. Another
member of the party (who is a much weaker skiier than me) considered himself to
be an intermediate and would try as many red (and occasional black) runs as he
could find. On a couple of occasions, I went with him.


If you want to become a better skier, you need to be challenging
yourself, so this was almost certainly a good idea.


1. I noticed that the 'good' skiiers on the run were not making sharp turns.
Instead, they were following a vague slalom style. As I didn't know what was
ahead, I liked to keep my speed down and therefore found myself constantly
trying to slow down. I didn't enjoy this style of skiing which was made worse
by the hard-packed / icey conditions. Nonetheless, I was able to descend with
relative ease and control. My friend had adopted the same methods as myself but
seemed to enjoy this style of skiing.

Why didn't you enjoy it?

Generally, I find that if am skiing in control, I do enjoy it.

- Given that neither of us were happy skiing 'properly' on these red runs,

What is this "properly"?

OK, if you are sideslipping your way down, you could probably argue
that you are not skiing it "properly", but in general, if you ski from
the top to the bottom in reasonable control, only stop at the sides of
the piste, and only when you want to, then you are skiing properly.

should we have been on the blues? On the latter, I was able to make really nice
short and long turns but this didn't seem possible on the red while keeping my
speed low.

There is no "should be". Ski on what you enjoy skiing the most. If you
want to improve, then ski on slopes that will challenge you (but not
be totally beyond you), even if you don't necessarily enjoy it at
first.

2. My friend wanted to try a few black runs. Since I knew that they would be
even worse than the reds, I didn't follow. Luckily we had radios so we could
split up! He was only able to traverse these runs very slowly and fell a lot of
the time. I didn't think that he should have been on them given that he hasn't
mastered basic turns yet - he leans far too far back (lifting the tips to
turn).


Well falling is part of learning. If you aren't falling at all, you
are probably not progressing. But on the other hand, if you are
falling *too* much, you are probably far enough out of your depth that
you still won't learn much.

a) Was my technique wrong? I found that I was only able to slow down on the
reds by making a series of Christie stops. Due to the conditions, I think that
I was using around 4-5m of slope for each. I found this incredibly boring.

If you are finding it boring, then go and ski on slopes you can manage
without being bored.

You should be able to slow down by skidding your turns. If you can't
do that on a red, then you are very much only a borderline
intermediate skier.

In
essence, when people move on to a more difficult slope, should their speed
increase accordingly in order to maintain a good skiing style. Alternatively,
is it appropriate to constantly try to slow down.


You will normally ski slower at first on steeper slopes.

Once you are used to it, and competent at skiing them, you *may* ski
faster on steeper slope, but generally only if the shallower ones are
so crowded that speed would not be safe, or alternatively, if you are
racing, and going as fast as the angle of slope will allow.


b) Is it acceptable to be on runs which you cannot 'ski' but are able to
descend using the traversing technique? If my statement (above) regarding speed
on different runs is correct, then surely it is incredibly dangerous for
someone to be traversing on a black run since the proficient black run skiiers
will be moving extremely fast.


Not at all. If they are coming down the slope fast, then somebody
traversing slowly isn't much more than a stationary object. It is the
responsibility of the overtaking skier to avoid those he is
overtaking.

Of course, if they are blasting down the slope without being properly
aware of what is ahead, then they are an accident waiting to happen
anyhow.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
Half of the people in the world are below average.

To reply by email, my address is alexATheneyDOTplusDOTcom