ride flat, without an edge.

"Beloved Leader" wrote

Remember, the heaviest part wants to go first.

In automotive terms, oversteer or understeer. The heavier end of the
car will tend to aim at the outside of a curve.

An important distinction is missing here. In your 911 example, what
makes them helicopter out into the boonies is the driver lifting the
throttle (or worse, hitting the brakes) in the middle of the turn.

There are to "heavy" things he one is the physical heaviness of the
car, and the other is how much dynamic pressure is at each end of
the car. When you accelerate, rear wheels get more pressure (weight
is transfered to the back) and thus more traction. Therefore when
on ANY car regardless of its static weight distribution one slams the
brakes in the middle of a turn it is likely to start oversteering. It's just
much more severe in a 911 because lateral forces act on its rear
more than on other cars.

But I still have a problem making any sort of analogy with a snowboard
here.

My experience has been a bit different:

correct this tendency, the driver applies more effort to turn the
steering wheel into the curve, thus bringing the car's path back into
alignment with the road. The reaction is a normal one.

Actually, if you're truely in understeer (ie, front wheels have gone
to dynamic friction) changing the steering angle will do little to
affect your line. You'll just continue to skid along the tangent line
from the point where you lost static friction. What will work is to
apply left foot breaking, which will cause the car to transition from
understeer to oversteer or possibly start a 4 wheel drift. Then you'll
have some ability to rotate the car or shape the skid. Try this in a
frozen or sand parking lot sometime.

to the outside of a curve. To correct this tendency, the driver has to
make an extremely unnatural reaction - he turns the steering wheel so
that the car aims away from the path of the curve. The result is often
that the car is wrecked.

I don't think the reaction is unnatural at all. When I was learing to
drive on ice in the midwest, someone told me "steer into the skid" and
it all seemed clear enough.

What isn't clear about oversteer is that you have to control the front
to back weight balance of the car to affect the line. For example, in
a front wheel drive car to correct for oversteer you must _gas_ not
brake. This is what I believe is an un-natural reaction, and is why
most front wheel drive cars are biased to understeer. Understeer is
also easier for other drivers to predict and avoid. And finally, it's
very easy to overcorrect for oversteer and throw the car into a spin
in the opposit rotation.

By far the most "normal reaction" situation for skids is AWD. All you
need tell someone is "if you skid, point where you want the car to go
and gas." Once you gas, all 4 wheels go to dynamic friction. This
starts a 4 wheel drift, which is neither oversteer or understeer, and
is fairly easy to control without being aware of the car's weight
balance.

You haven't lived until you ride with someone who can drift a 5 gear
hairpin in rally.

"Dmitry" wrote in message news:u_RXb.326699$na.480134@attbi_s04...

... In your 911 example, what
makes them helicopter out into the boonies is the driver lifting the
throttle (or worse, hitting the brakes) in the middle of the turn.


Dot-com millionaires - a junkyard owner's best friends.

Can I totally disagree with you (and others) about riding flat?
IMHO one should *alwyas* ride on an edge.

I agree with you that riding on an edge
is safe, but it doesn't mean one should never ride flat.

I would say after about 30km/hr I would never ride flat.

OK, please tell me this mythical speed at which one no longer rides
flat? If I'm looking to carry speed for a flat section, I'll keep my
board flat unless I'm actively turning.

I'm with Jeremiah on this one- I feel like I can ride flat at any speed
I need to if the situation warrants it. You typically won't see me ride
flat unless I know I'm going to need the extra speed to get through a
flat or uphill section, since I enjoy being on edge more. I'm pretty
sure I get going pretty fast in advance of an uphill section, riding
flat - definitely faster than 30 kph.

Now, I do avoid riding flat when I think there is any chance I might
need to stop or change direction suddenly. The most dangerous part
about riding flat IMHO is what happens when you stop riding flat. If
you put the board on edge and carve out of it, no problem. But if
something surprises you and you start to change direction without
getting edge first, good night! You're doomed to catch an edge.
Panic moves don't generally end well when you're flat and fast.

Several people have mentioned good reasons why one would have trouble
riding flat. We've mentioned inexperience, technique problems, boards
that need tuning, and stance. I'd like to expand on the stance issue
and also throw in one more - if you catch edges riding flat, it's
possible that you should get a stiffer board. A heavier rider on a
soft board is going to be able to twist it sufficiently that on the
front end of the board, one edge is a little engaged, and on the back
end of the board, the opposite edge is slightly engaged. That will
generally end badly. It's easier to get into this situation than you
think if you have a softer board that chatters at speed.

Now back to stances. If you've been riding for a while and you have
trouble riding flat, and it's not a technique problem (e.g., body too
stiff) or an equipment problem (e.g., concave base), then maybe it's
time to re-examine that stance. Sharkie has alredy talked about
changing your angles so that your hips are in a comfortable neutral
position. Another thing to check ais that your bindings are positioned
well across the board. For example if your front binding is positioned
a little more towards the toeside than your back binding is, it might
throw you off just enough to cause problems. Also, if you've set your
board up for powder with the bindings back, and forgotten to put
everything back, that could throw you off too.

Mike T

"Jeremiah Kristal" wrote in message
...
OK, please tell me this mythical speed at which one no longer rides
flat? If I'm looking to carry speed for a flat section, I'll keep my
board flat unless I'm actively turning. I'm riding hard boots and a
Donek Axis 178, so I suspect I go a bit faster than most snowboarders,
and I'm also very aware of what my edges are doing.
Riding with the board flat is a skill like anything else. It takes
practice to learn, but can be done.

Maybe we dont define "riding flat" the same. I will ride pretty much flat
but keep pressure on one edge and carry my weight just slightly on that
side. I'm not carving, my board is flat, but theres more pressure on one
edge than the other. This way no edge catching, also no turning, and someone
watching would probably say I'm riding flat even though I'm not. What I
never do (unless I'm going slow enough that catching an edge can be
corrected before I go down) is ride perfectly flat with my weight centered,
not knowing which edge I'm on.

Maybe its just me.

"Mike T" wrote in message
...

Several people have mentioned good reasons why one would have trouble
riding flat. We've mentioned inexperience, technique problems, boards
that need tuning, and stance. I'd like to expand on the stance issue
and also throw in one more - if you catch edges riding flat, it's
possible that you should get a stiffer board. A heavier rider on a
soft board is going to be able to twist it sufficiently that on the
front end of the board, one edge is a little engaged, and on the back
end of the board, the opposite edge is slightly engaged. That will
generally end badly. It's easier to get into this situation than you
think if you have a softer board that chatters at speed.

Cheers, Mike. That sounds like exactly the problem I've been having. I've
got a fairly flexible freestyle board, and yeah, it chatters at speed, and I
catch edges riding flat. I'm gettig better at it, and I can tell when it's
catching and jump out of the situation, but it can still be scary. Maybe
it's time for a nice Donek...

and also throw in one more - if you catch edges riding flat, it's
possible that you should get a stiffer board. A heavier rider on a

I think this is right on. I know when I've tried friend's boards that
the softer the board, the lower my "this is safe" speed limit is. I
think boots might matter too. Like with my weight my boots are stiff
enough that pushing or pulling with my toes has very little affect on
edge pressure. To change edging really I have to move my weight from
the knees up. If my boots were so soft that I had to actively adjust
my ankle to keep from pressuring an edge at the wrong moment, I
definately think I wouldn't feel as safe bombing flat.

I also totally agree with what Dimitry said: I'm much more comfortable
skipping across the top of choppy stuff flat than edged. I'm pretty
good at edging heelside over that stuff, since I can just let it pound
my heels... toeside's my weak point right now.

Several people have mentioned good reasons why one would have trouble
riding flat. We've mentioned inexperience, technique problems, boards
that need tuning, and stance. I'd like to expand on the stance issue
and also throw in one more - if you catch edges riding flat, it's
possible that you should get a stiffer board. A heavier rider on a
soft board is going to be able to twist it sufficiently that on the
front end of the board, one edge is a little engaged, and on the back
end of the board, the opposite edge is slightly engaged. That will
generally end badly. It's easier to get into this situation than you
think if you have a softer board that chatters at speed.

Cheers, Mike. That sounds like exactly the problem I've been having. I've
got a fairly flexible freestyle board, and yeah, it chatters at speed, and I
catch edges riding flat. I'm gettig better at it, and I can tell when it's
catching and jump out of the situation, but it can still be scary. Maybe
it's time for a nice Donek...


Hey.. this is the majority of my owies.. usually on flatter terrain,
a sudden edge catching and down I go.

Come to think of it.. all my painful falls have been off the steeps...
and always in some silly situation like Im trying to avoid a meat
mogul or something... Most of my falls while actually on the hill are
usually just loosing my edge, and sliding a bit.

I ride a Salomon Regulate 168. I'm 6'4" 230+lbs. I thought this
board was stiff..

Im really starting to see how a narrower board could be interesting.

Hey.. this is the majority of my owies.. usually on flatter terrain,
a sudden edge catching and down I go.
-snip-
Come to think of it.. all my painful falls have been off the steeps...

Two things at work here!

1) Falls on steeps are often less painful, because you tend to roll or
slide out rather than smack down. You're hitting the ground at an angle
rather than dead-on.

2) Edge catches are less likely on steeps. In order to catch an edge
you generally need to be skidding on your downhill edge. It's a lot
harder to get intio that situation on a steep trail.

I ride a Salomon Regulate 168. I'm 6'4" 230+lbs. I thought this
board was stiff..

"Stiff" is all relative. What's "really stiff" to a 160 or even 180
pounder might be "soft" to a 230 pounder.

-Mike T