Doping Dopes?

On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:45:58 +1000, Chris Cole
wrote:

unsportsmanlike and unethical behaviour.

Cops shouldn't be involved in simply because someone is
unsportsmanlike or unethical.

Whether they are in and of themselves illegal is irrelevant. Their
presence in such a context makes it very very likely that they are being
employed to illegal ends.

So by your logic there is at least one member of the US ski team that
should be taken in by the cops. Brilliant.

JT



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Since you put words into my mouth -- suggesting I only want police to
sit in their office -- I'll put words in yours: If someone uses
syringes or glucose the police should take them in for questioning.

Brilliant.

It's a question of the probability of what they're doing with syringes
and IV gear, not whether they're intrinsically legal or not.

Is an athlete at an olympic games who is found with parenteral drug
administration equipment more likely to have a valid non-cheating reason
for possessing them, in that place at that time in that context, or are
they more likely to be engaged in unsportsmanlike endeavours?

It's _possible_ they could have had a valid reason. However, if they
did, then one would presume they might not toss it all out the window
and then leave town, no?

Depending on your line of work one might think of it in terms of
clinical index of suspicion, probable cause, burden of proof, or
establishment (or not) of reasonable doubt.

It may only be circumstantial evidence of a misdeed, but possession of
such equipment at an elite athletic gathering would have to be
considered by any reasonably intelligent individual to represent a very
high likelihood of illegal or at least unsportsmanlike and unethical
behaviour.


electricity at 5 times the
normal rate, they should just ignore it,
because after all, electricity
is perfectly legal to use... they
couldn't possibly be doing something
suspicious like growing pot.


Please don't set up straw men like "couldn't possibly." I haven't
said the Austrians "couldn't possibly" be doping, have I? I've simply
asked if glucose or syringes are illegal. Are they?

Whether they are in and of themselves illegal is irrelevant. Their
presence in such a context makes it very very likely that they are being
employed to illegal ends.

Again, kitchen knives aren't illegal but if I'm found tossing a
blood-stained one out the window very close to the scene of a recent
stabbing, would you consider it unreasonable to arrest me?


In the electricity situtation you mention above, the police can watch
the house or see if there are any other things that indicate drug
production. Sure, it's *possible* pot is being grown. But I would
strongly object to someone being taken to a policy station, without
access to a lawyer, for simply using more electricity than normal. I
personally don't want to live in a society where simple suspicions
like that results in being taken out of a home or out of a hotel room
by the police. That's pretty scary.

The electricity analogy was a fairly poor one.


activity or doping activity. Unless syringes and glucose are against
the law or against the rules of sport. Are they?

You just keep missing the point. The legality or otherwise of IV
equipment is not relevant to the argument at hand.

Cheers,
Chris

On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:53:30 +1000, Chris Cole
wrote:



What about severe diarrhea and a race later that day?


That would be most unfortunate, and a good reason for intravenous
rehydration. Most people would probably withdraw from an event, but
being the olympics... maybe not. =)
In that case, however, it would be most unusual to take IV infusion gear
"home" with you.

Have you travelled with top-level sports teams? I haven't, but have a
couple friends who have, and from what I understand, it makes sense to
have a lot of medical equipment with the team, if they have a doctor
and can afford to transport it. Diarrhoea is not a rare thing when
traveling and training hard. Nor is deydration. Why should a team
waste the time sending someone to a hospital, where other doctors are
involved, if their own doctor can more conveniently treat the problem?

It would be more conventional to be treated in a
hospital, clinic or surgery. It is very unusual to
send anyone home with
IV access in place for acute illnesses.

Top-level sports, where you are traveling, have tremendous time
pressures and have a doctor with you, and are subjecting the athlete
to tremendous stresses are *not* conventional situations. Even the
medecine that the atheletes can and cannot take are not conventional
insofar as a lot of normal stuff is banned.

While possible that one's own team doctor could institute such therapy
in the athlete's room, it would be a less than brilliant option,
Given the attention given to doping
allegations let alone proven cases of the same, it would seem much more
prudent to

True, there is a cycle of suspicion now. But by the same token, I
could easily see the team saying, "Don't mention it, we don't want to
see headlines saying 'skiers being medicated in their rooms' in the
papers tomorrow."

JT

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What about severe diarrhea and a race later that day?


That would be most unfortunate, and a good reason for intravenous
rehydration. Most people would probably withdraw from an event, but
being the olympics... maybe not. =)

In that case, however, it would be most unusual to take IV infusion gear
"home" with you. It would be more conventional to be treated in a
hospital, clinic or surgery. It is very unusual to send anyone home with
IV access in place for acute illnesses.

While possible that one's own team doctor could institute such therapy
in the athlete's room, it would be a less than brilliant option,
particularly if doing so without notifying the relevant
organisers/administrators. Given the attention given to doping
allegations let alone proven cases of the same, it would seem much more
prudent to seek external medical opinion, treatment, or at least have
someone outside the team make a note that a certain athlete is receiving
a certain treatment for valid medical reasons.

Regards,
Chris

How do you explain Walter Mayer being allowed to hang around by
the team and individuals and even be a personal coach, even tho he's
been banned by the IOC until at least 2010? The issue in Italy is more
complicated because athletic drug use is immediately a police matter
by law. That was known ahead of time and a deal worked out with the IOC,
however tenuous, so that the police didn't just start showing up and
arresting people. But in this case they were requested by the IOC. Why
IOC security itself couldn't have just shown up somewhat earlier in the
evening is not clear to me, tho they may not be equipped for such an
extensive operation, one involving citizens of other countries.
Clearly, the continuing involvement of Walter Mayer itself created a
primie facie case that there was something not on the up and up going
on. What is your alternative for handling the situation?

Gene

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:45:58 +1000, Chris Cole
wrote:

unsportsmanlike and unethical behaviour.

Cops shouldn't be involved in simply because someone is
unsportsmanlike or unethical.

Whether they are in and of themselves illegal is irrelevant. Their
presence in such a context makes it very very likely that they are
being employed to illegal ends.

So by your logic there is at least one member of the US ski team that
should be taken in by the cops. Brilliant.

JT



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There was more than just syringes and glucose. There were drugs found.
The blood equipment went beyond what was need for an IV drip. The
Austrian ski federation has already admitted that two skiers were using
proscribed methods. This never would have happened without the action
taken by the authorities.
In Canada we have much more liberal drug laws than the States, but the
police can enter a house if they have circumstantial evidence, like
energy useage patterns. There have been enough cases where motorbike
gangs have purchased suburban houses to use as grow-ops and the
neighbours figure out what is going on before the cops and alert them -
it happend to a friend of mine recently where an Asian gang were using
a house across the street from them . The cops had no idea about that
particular house. The situation with the Austrians was similiar.
Somebody saw enough to draw suspicion and given the history of the one
of the parties involved, they took reasonable action. I really can't
see what the problem is.

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
On 22 Feb 2006 07:25:08 -0800, "cpella" wrote:

Cool. You've hit on a new approach to enforcement. Instead of going out
and doing investigations and being pro-active - because there's all
that work involved - the agencies can sit in an office and wait for the
miscreants to come down and give themselves up. Wow! I wonder why WADA
didn't think of that. And if somebody at the electrical utility notices
that a certain residence has started using electricity at 5 times the
normal rate, they should just ignore it, because after all, electricity
is perfectly legal to use... they couldn't possibly be doing something
suspicious like growing pot.

Since you put words into my mouth -- suggesting I only want police to
sit in their office -- I'll put words in yours: If someone uses
syringes or glucose the police should take them in for questioning.

Brilliant.

electricity at 5 times the
normal rate, they should just ignore it,
because after all, electricity
is perfectly legal to use... they
couldn't possibly be doing something
suspicious like growing pot.

Please don't set up straw men like "couldn't possibly." I haven't
said the Austrians "couldn't possibly" be doping, have I? I've simply
asked if glucose or syringes are illegal. Are they?

In the electricity situtation you mention above, the police can watch
the house or see if there are any other things that indicate drug
production. Sure, it's *possible* pot is being grown. But I would
strongly object to someone being taken to a policy station, without
access to a lawyer, for simply using more electricity than normal. I
personally don't want to live in a society where simple suspicions
like that results in being taken out of a home or out of a hotel room
by the police. That's pretty scary.

In the case of the Austrian ski team, the coach is banned from working
at the Olympics. OK -- so grab him. Syringes raise suspicions. OK --
so watch the athletes and see if they actually do anything illegal.
Check their drug tests carefully. But don't report those things
*after* the athletes are detained as if they demonstrate illegal
activity or doping activity. Unless syringes and glucose are against
the law or against the rules of sport. Are they?

JFT

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On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 07:17:25 -0600, Gene Goldenfeld
wrote:

How do you explain Walter Mayer being allowed to hang around by
the team and individuals and even be a personal coach, even tho he's
been banned by the IOC until at least 2010?

I don't. That's against the rules.

I haven't argued that the Austrians aren't doping -- we don't know
yet. They well could be.. I am just saying that lumping legitimate
food and medical equipment in with doping is lame.

What is your alternative for handling the situation?

Catch Mayer and punish him. Observe the test values of the athletes
very closely.

JT

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From the news. The Austrians admit themselves that the equipment should
not have been there.

quote
The head of the Austrian Ski Federation is meeting an Italian
prosecutor probing a possible use of illegal substances or methods by
Olympic athletes on Thursday, a Federation spokesman said. "He is in
Turin, meeting with the prosecutor," a federation spokesman said.

His lawyer called and said he should come to Turin to see the
prosecutor and he is now with both of them."

Police on Saturday raided the houses of the Austrian Olympic biathletes
and cross-country skiers, confiscated syringes, medication and other
material, while controllers tested 10 athletes for doping.

The raid was triggered by the presence of Austrian coach Walter Mayer,
who was banned from the Olympic Games up to and including the Winter
Olympics in 2010 for his role in a blood transfusion scandal at Salt
Lake City in 2002.

Doping tests were carried out on ten Austrian athletes after the raids
on Saturday.

International Olympic Committee (IOC) spokeswoman Giselle Davies told a
news conference on Thursday the results of the tests would be out soon.

"One would imagine that we would have the test results before the Games
are over," she said.

Austria fears the IOC could ban it altogether from future Olympics
Games after the doping scandal.

The Austrian Olympic Committee has launched a probe of its own into
Mayer, who was detained by police on his way back to Austria after he
tried to ram a police roadblock. He has now been admitted to a
psychiatric hospital.

The IOC has said it will also set up a disciplinary commission into the
affair.

"People are thinking about punishing us, even about banning us,"
Austrian Olympic Committee secretary general Heinz Jungwirth told
Austrian news agency APA on Thursday.

"We want to avoid that. The damage of a ban would be impossible to make
good again.

"There's a storm brewing at the IOC. Whether the doping tests are
positive or negative doesn't matter," Jungwirth said.

"There was equipment found that was clearly not allowed, including
equipment for blood transfusions."

/quote

Furthermo
quote
Jungwirth told Reuters coach Emil Hoch, who also disappeared shortly
after the raids, would be banned from future Olympics.

"We've suspended him and it certainly won't be just for these
Olympics," he said.

/unquote

The incident happened days ago and theres been no published report since.
Its that very secrecy that I find so annoying.

In the WADA tests this season on WC competitors some results were made known at the time in a genuine attempt to inform the skiworld and the general public. Then it became obvious that other results were not made known, an incident had obviously taken place but the curtain had come down and the skiworld and general public were not to be told.

Its the lack of information from 'the people up there' thats prompted the comments on this thread.

The fact that you write "The Austrians admit themselves that the
equipment should not have been there" without referring to the stuff I
objected lumping in as doping material (glucose and syringes) points
to a certain confusion on your part about what is legal, what is
against the rules of the sport, and what is illegal.

As does the fact that feel it is important to mention, in an apparent
response to me, that "There was more than just syringes and glucose.
There were drugs found. The blood equipment went beyond what was need
for an IV drip" shows the same thing. It would be a lot better to
report on stuff that was found that is actually against the rules or
against the law -- like banned drugs found or blood transfusion
equipment.

The next time you suggest someone is doing something illegal and lump
in stuff that is not illegal, you should expect to be questioned about
it. Don't get indigant when someone points out to you that glucose and
syringes are not themselves against the rules of the sport. Unless
you want to confuse things further.

Speaking of confusion, what does "There were drugs found" mean?

Does it mean EPO? Aspirin? Ephedrine? Melatonin? Insulin? What? At
least let us know if the drugs were banned or illegal. I have drugs in
my home and often travel with drugs. I'll bet you do too.

"There was equipment found that was clearly not allowed, including
equipment for blood transfusions."

The statement above is useful information. Reporting on glucose being
found is not.

the police can enter a house if they
have circumstantial evidence, like
energy useage patterns.

That sucks. I hope that if my home is ever raided and nothing illegal
is found you won't just report that "lighting equipment and drugs were
found."

JFT

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