why hardboots?

Indeed. With a couple of exceptions (Brighton Utah, Serena Finland)
I've never seen a popular half pipe/ terrain park. Yet the equipment
and magazines on sale seem to be 100% rail-oriented. Out in the real

Around here, unless conditions are particularly bad, there's always
people in the park. Some times crowded enough to make you think about
riding someplace else even if you wanted nothing but park. And then
don't get me started on timberline in the late spring and summer...
people come there and spend a lot of money expressly for the summer
park.

world about 98% of snowbaorders would seem to be sideslipping even
moderately steep runs, often on their arses. And the skiiers are
blowing them away in the pipe. Perhaps it's simply easier to make a
sideslipper look good if they're in the air.

There's plenty of good boarders around here. Today I saw some of the
best trenches I've ever seen... someone just bombing their way down
the face at mt hood meadws making perfectly symetrical carves. The
trenches were hugely deep, and the transitions incredibly quick...
It's the best carving track I've ever seen, and there were several
runs by the same guy, all as impressive. And guess what, it was a guy
on softboots and a parellel stance doing it.

It is gonna be interesting to see where things go. I fully expect
skiing to suprass boarding in technical achievement... the skiers are
already higher in the pipe, and pretty soon people will show up that
can use that speed and the faster spin rate skis give to really do
some amazing sutff. Good aerialists can do tripple/tripples pretty
routinely, and I fully expect that to get adapted to the pipe. Skiers
seem to be able to lock onto rails easier than boarders too, so
they'll be doing those huge spins and flips in slopestye onto and off
the rails as well.

It's not like boarding is going to die... but I do think things will
evolve beyond the current: skiing == racing and boarding == freestyle
generalizations once skiers come into their own in the park.

On 12 Mar 2004 17:43:29 -0800, Arvin Chang said (and I quote):
I would like to dispute the fact that "all" or even "most"
halfpipes/terrain parks are empty... from my experience in the past 8
years or so they are often super crowded will silly once-a-year
vacationers who want to try to "catch some air" and brag about it to
their friends back home.

When I originally said that the pipes and parks were empty, I was
referring to mid-week. On the weekends they are quite crowded, and as
you said, it's with silly once-a-year people who seem to be doing
jumps/rails mostly as a dare, or as fodder for their friend's amusement.

The good riders are mostly out carving the groomers. In soft boots.

That's not to say that there is a significant difference between what
marketing and actuality as you mentioned... snowboarding magazines
show a lot of aerials and rail tricks to be sure... but is that any
different from commericals showing big brawny pickups and SUV bouncing
along rocky hills and through shallow streams or sports car/motocycles
blasting down windy mountain roads doing high-G turns? Most people
(99%) won't be doing either of those things. Marketing always tries to
show people a "fantasy" lifestyle in order to get them to buy their
product, snowboarding is no different.

It's not the fact that the sport is sold with a fantasy, it's the nature
of that fantasy. Why doesn't the fantasy include people railing turns
down steep icy groomers, or even in powder?

Most importantly, many people don't *want* to do carves deep trenches,
much in the same way that they don't want to do jumps - putting them
on hardboots would just make them miserable as alpine board are
terrible skid.

Your right, in that many (most?) people prefer to cruise around the
mountain in an upright, gentle manner. I haven't seen much hard boot
advocacy aimed at them. It's the expert soft-boot carvers (a
significant proportion of mid-week riders that I see) that are the focus
of the advocacy.
--
A: Top-posters.
Q: What's the most annoying thing on usenet?

When I originally said that the pipes and parks were empty, I was referring
to mid-week.

So the people that are independantly wealthy and don't have to work tend to
carve more than jump...that's not really a surprise. Kids are supposed to be
in school in the middle of the week, y'know.

"Baka Dasai" wrote

The good riders are mostly out carving the groomers. In soft boots.

Aww, come on, carving groomers is no big deal and you don't have to
be particularly good to do that. Just a little practice, stiff board and
understanding of the basics. And yeah, gotta have some respect for
dudes who can do a smooth 720 at a pretty good speed just bombing down some
flat blue runs (seen one today at Baker) - they don't give a **** about
this carving thing - why would they if just bombing straight down works fine?

It's not the fact that the sport is sold with a fantasy, it's the nature
of that fantasy. Why doesn't the fantasy include people railing turns
down steep icy groomers, or even in powder?

Steep icy groomers don't exist. Snowcat won't go up a slope of 50 degrees.
If you've seen some, please LMK where, I'd be very much interested.

And you can't really rail on a steeps, not enough gravity working at
the rail. Railing goes well on a moderate runs which was just groomed
or are otherwise conductive to stable carving. Pretty boring if you ask
me, once you've done that for an hour or so and the wow factor is gone.

Your right, in that many (most?) people prefer to cruise around the
mountain in an upright, gentle manner. I haven't seen much hard boot
advocacy aimed at them. It's the expert soft-boot carvers (a
significant proportion of mid-week riders that I see) that are the focus
of the advocacy.

Aww come on, don't just blow off all of the peopole who actually have
regular (well, mine's not all that regular, but still) day jobs and can
only ride on weekends and nights. But yeah, hard boot advocasy is the
**** - works pretty well, I'm definitely intrested and looking to get
a hardboot setup.

"Neil Gendzwill" wrote

Under 50 being a lower angle and 21cm being a "fairly wide" board
seems a bit scary, but looks like I'll gonna have to try hardboots. Well
done and thanks for sharing to everybody who replied, I'm almost convinced.

When I rode hardboots on a freeride board (25 cm waist), I used 35
degree angles. Now that I'm on an all-mountain board, it's 45. You
don't have to go to a narrower waist, but you should absolutely go to
steeper angles. Unless you're already at 30 plus in softies.

But.. Why? To be able to ride with the shoulders pointing downhill?

"Mike T" wrote

I'll have to agree with Baka Dasai... there is plenty of space to progress
in "extreme carving".

Like what? I'm really curious because so far all I've done was just
understanding the basics and feeling the carve. Yes, I can lay a plenty
good symmetrical trench all the way down if the surface is cooperating.
Yes my instructor-level skier friends have to catch up with me sometimes if I'm
on the Carbon Circle. Except for a really well fit friend on a huge GS skis
What's up with plain carving everybody is so excited about other than lateral
acceleration? Please do elaborate.

in my softboot/strap binding setup, what's in it for me in a hardboot setup?

So I tried hardboots for the 2nd time this weekend. I'd ridden a bad
fitting pair one day last spring, but I really hadn't done enough
riding in general to form much of an opinion then.

What stands out to me after trying them again now is _response_. The
motions and technique is pretty similar to how I ride on softboots
(stance 30/21, hardboot stance 55/48)... but with hardboots everything
is smaller movements... but not just that, there's a level of
precision that's amazing. Like if you make a rotation with your upper
body... on soft boots, not much happens... but with the hardboots, the
moment you stop the rotation, exactly that amount of rotational
momentum transfers to steering the board. It's a slightly spooky
feeling at first.

And there's clearly much more edging ability. Conditions this weekend
varied from slushy corderoy to frozen corderoy depending on weither
snow was in the shade. In soft boots I'd have to pay a lot of
attention to the surface, and I'd be pretty conservative about my line
through the frozen shades, planning to make sharp turns out side them,
etc. With the hardboots, even though I'm still not feeling completely
comfortable with them, I felt very confident just blasting into and
through the frozen crap. I definately feel like my speed limit is
higher. You also punch in and through stuff more than in softboots,
where even when I'm carving I feel like I'm skipping on top of the
chunky stuff.

I'll have to ride them a bit more before I know which setup I'll
perfer for all around riding... but I can feel now how much potential
hardboots offer. I'm confident an excelent softboot rider could do all
the same stuff... but the feeling is markedly different on hardboots.
I'd first tried hardboots to see if I could learn something for riding
in general, and perhaps as a different way to have fun once the season
gets to a close here and the only terrain with snow on it is the wide
open glacier. Now I can see myself doing almost all the riding I like
in hardboots... the question of which I like better will take a while
to sort out.

If you ride as good as you say, then you're a better rider than I am.
You probibly know what you want better than I could suggest. But, from
the description of what you like, it might be worth it for you to try
the hardboots.

I'll have to agree with Baka Dasai... there is plenty of space to
progress
in "extreme carving".

Like what?

-snip-

What's up with plain carving everybody is so excited about other than
lateral
acceleration? Please do elaborate.

Also referring to one of your other posts:

And you can't really rail on a steeps, not enough gravity working
at the rail. Railing goes well on a moderate runs which was just
groomed or are otherwise conductive to stable carving. Pretty
boring if you askme, once you've done that for an hour or so and
the wow factor is gone.

Well, you just named one direction to progress in - carving steeper slopes.
Yes it can be done, and when you do it, what a rush it is! I'm at a point
where I can lay trenches on steep *wide* slopes, if the conditions are
right. I sometimes ride with guys who can make them look like beginner
slopes even when they are icy. The rush of acceleration must be
incredible, based on the looks on their faces at the bottom of the hill!
I'm working up to their level slowly but surely.

Carving is also about style. Developing your style is a challenge in and
of itself. Oh yeah, and then you could try racing! In general, "deeper,
harder, faster" is the name of the game. But it's not for everyone and if
you don't "get it" and find it boring that's OK, you're not spoiling the fun
for me

Mike T

"Baka Dasai" wrote

Steep icy groomers don't exist. Snowcat won't go up a slope of 50 degrees.
If you've seen some, please LMK where, I'd be very much interested.

What is this, some sort of dick-length contest? - my steep is steeper
than your steep!

To me, "steep" is anything over 30 degrees. It's pretty tough to carve
slopes that steep, especially when they're icy.

Ok, now it makes sense. I thought "steeps" is usually a reference to some
really wall-like slopes. Yeah, carving up a black groomer is fun, although
I have to admit that I'd very much prefer hardpack to ice for that. Just
have to remember to tune up the edges the night before..

BTW, question about edge tune-up. I tried doing that myself before
yersterday's Baker trip (usually went to the shop and asked them for
a 90-degree tune). And it looks like I screwed up somewhat in that
mine was not 90 degrees. I have this hand tuning tool, and it's so
easy to screw the tune up - any movement where the part that's touching
the board base lifts off a little results in the edge getting shaved
off at the wrong angle. It was somewhat icy at Baker and I definitely
felt the board is less grabby than it could be.

Is it just a matter of also getting some vice grips to really stabilize
the board, and then being very careful with the tool? I was just laying
the board on two bar stools, holding it with one hand and dusting off the
edge with the other.

"Mike T" wrote

And you can't really rail on a steeps, not enough gravity working
at the rail. Railing goes well on a moderate runs which was just
groomed or are otherwise conductive to stable carving. Pretty
boring if you askme, once you've done that for an hour or so and
the wow factor is gone.

Well, you just named one direction to progress in - carving steeper slopes.
Yes it can be done, and when you do it, what a rush it is! I'm at a point
where I can lay trenches on steep *wide* slopes, if the conditions are
right. I sometimes ride with guys who can make them look like beginner
slopes even when they are icy. The rush of acceleration must be
incredible, based on the looks on their faces at the bottom of the hill!
I'm working up to their level slowly but surely.

Where do you ride? Hood? I'm just trying to find out what is really
ment by "steep" here (and maybe also try to hook up with you some day -
riding with people who are better than you are is the best way to improve
skills ). There are two types of steeps that can be carved.
Black runs that were groomed, and really steep ones that are so steep
it's impossible to form moguls there, so the snow is pretty even.
Sometimes you can find a spot like this on the side of a black run
with moguls that is particularly steep or inconvinient to get to by skiers.
I was refering to the second case, which is what I'm working on now.

As for carving steeper groomed runs.. If they're icy it's a bit of a
struggle for me because I know there's a set limit on how much I can
push the board without getting wiped out. This takes away
a lot of the fun factor because I have to hold back and cant' really
be all that aggressive. I guess that's where hard boots and alpine
board come in, with much longer effective edge and more precise control.
I still doubt any board can allow putting it way up on the edge and
leaning into the turn on plain ice. Well, maybe a GS board can, but it's
too specialized to be useful for riding anything but GS-like terrain.

Carving is also about style. Developing your style is a challenge in and
of itself. Oh yeah, and then you could try racing! In general, "deeper,
harder, faster" is the name of the game. But it's not for everyone and if
you don't "get it" and find it boring that's OK, you're not spoiling the fun
for me

I guess my problem with carving is that first of all, you spend much less
time doing something on the slope compared to sitting on the lift, then
that it seems like equipment that is good for riding more extreme terrain
is not very good for carving, and that I can't really enjoy it all day.
Need to vary and ride different types of terrain to keep aggression levels
high.