Speed: Boards vs. Skis??

Evojeesus wrote:
On Nov 26, 4:51 pm, VtSkier wrote:

I think the question is still up in the air.

Well, the question is still, have snowboarders ever beat skiers on the
same course? Case in point, Derby de la Meije 2008 (total vertical
depends on the year but can be over 1800m):

Fastest skier: 06:02
Fastest monoskier: 07:33
Fastest telemarker: 07:33
Fastest snowboarder: 08:52

These guys are all certifiably insane, to get the idea of the madness
involved, check out the winning run from 2009:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Erc3yLswnWk

=:-O

nice clip

snowfake the troll notice position of hands?

On 11/26/2010 12:23 PM, lal_truckee wrote:
On 11/26/10 7:51 AM, VtSkier wrote:

I think someone can build a board (say 200cm long)
with other features, like very little sidecut
and a fairly forward stance and carving board
binding with stiff boots and then he might be
able to keep up with task oriented speed skis.
IOW, I think it may be the equipment. 'course
big cojones help too.

They use such custom speed boards in the speed trials such as Les Arcs,
pretty much matching your description. The resulting records were posted
herein awhile back - speed skier is substantially faster than a speed
boarder.


I don't doubt that.

There have been speed skiers since about 1860. There
has been a lot of development since then. I still think
you'll see the gap narrow. Will a boarder ever beat a
a skier in timed trials? I don't know, but it will be
interesting to watch them try. and you know they will
try.

As for aerodynamics and the testing of skiers in a
wind tunnel, I'm sure, if it hasn't been done yet, it
will be done with boarders.

On 11/26/2010 12:35 PM, pigo wrote:
On Nov 26, 9:26 am, wrote:
VtSkier wrote:

I can go across a slope on my edges without turning.
Can't you?

As for the argument at hand.
I once said to a snowboard instructor friend of mine
that skis were always faster than snowboard. We then
did a run from the top of one lift to the bottom of
another on a slope that goes from moderate to fairly
gentle.

He smoked me.

The conditions we
Fresh tune for him
He was 20 years old (I was 60 at the time)
and he was used to going very fast on a board.

I think the question is still up in the air.

I think someone can build a board (say 200cm long)
with other features, like very little sidecut
and a fairly forward stance and carving board
binding with stiff boots and then he might be
able to keep up with task oriented speed skis.
IOW, I think it may be the equipment. 'course
big cojones help too.

I have found that there is always an exception just not necessarily the
rule.
One difference is in the stance of snowboarder vs skier they do
windtunnel testing to find right position of skier for max speed low
drag position. You do not go fast standing up. I can not think of
getting a boarder into a aerodynamic shape with out surgery or being a
double amputee. Also the real speed skiers use aerodynamic faring on
their body and test in windtunnels.- Hide quoted text -

Any efficient skier knows that skis are faster and more manuverable.

In learning to ski the object is to learn to turn. How fast going
"straight down" isn't an issue. Only snowboarders use that "logic".
You can put a brick on any sliding device and achieve that. LOL, they
kinda do!

Well, I think "How fast going 'straight down'" is the
issue of this thread, which is why I said what I did
about speed skiing and speed boarding in another post.

Your notes about boarders going straight down the
mountain is only half of their bad behavior. The other
half is skidding down the mountain on their heel
sides. If they all went straight down like a brick
with p-tex, they wouldn't f**k up the hill so much.
It's the heel-skidders (we call them groomers at
Killington) who make such a mess of the hill.

Since our hill doesn't prohibit snowboarders, I've
learned to put up with them and to find a few (very
few) that are good at and knowledgeable about their
sport. Curiously, I find that group among those who
have decided to snowboard after having skied for a
few years.

IMO, because skiing takes a while to get good at, you
have time to learn safety and etiquette surrounding
the sport. After 3 days of lessons and bumps on the
bunny hill, most snowboarders can take on and heel-
skid down the main mountain, never having learned
anything except how to stand up without being too
badly bruised. They then think they are experts and
can do no wrong.

And I do delight in going to Mad River Glen once in a
while where they DON'T allow snowboards.

VtSkier wrote:

boarder.


I don't doubt that.

There have been speed skiers since about 1860. There
has been a lot of development since then. I still think
you'll see the gap narrow. Will a boarder ever beat a
a skier in timed trials? I don't know, but it will be
interesting to watch them try. and you know they will
try.

As for aerodynamics and the testing of skiers in a
wind tunnel, I'm sure, if it hasn't been done yet, it
will be done with boarders.

the tear drop shape is most aerodynamic the tuck gets close to that, at
least a lot closer than any shape I have seen a boarder in.

On Nov 26, 11:11*am, VtSkier wrote:

Well, I think "How fast going 'straight down'" is the
issue of this thread, which is why I said what I did
about speed skiing and speed boarding in another post.

Well that's really the only way to establish apples to apples isn't
it. Even running the same course seems like it would have advantages
depending on who set it. Though I have a hard time imagining a boarder
ever being faster except for in a straight down, difficult snow,
condition where not uncrossing tips could spell disaster.

Your notes about boarders going straight down the
mountain is only half of their bad behavior. The other
half is skidding down the mountain on their heel
sides. If they all went straight down like a brick
with p-tex, they wouldn't f**k up the hill so much.
It's the heel-skidders (we call them groomers at
Killington) who make such a mess of the hill.

The going straight down isn't as bad as the lack of control as they do
it. I could tuck and go straight or super-g an entire run in 3-4
turns. But I had 4 edges. All easily at hand for minor adjustment thru
major course changes. A snowboards 2 edges are a foot apart and
require a full swing of the body to the other side to get any sort of
change at all. By someone good at it! And they are going backwards
half of the time!

Flattening the snow is the reason I don't ski where they are allowed.
I can deal with their recklessness. It's the women and children that
are usually the victims of the "snowboard (wannabe) thugs".

Since our hill doesn't prohibit snowboarders, I've
learned to put up with them and to find a few (very
few) that are good at and knowledgeable about their
sport. Curiously, I find that group among those who
have decided to snowboard after having skied for a
few years.

See above. Exception/rule.

IMO, because skiing takes a while to get good at, you
have time to learn safety and etiquette surrounding
the sport. After 3 days of lessons and bumps on the
bunny hill, most snowboarders can take on and heel-
skid down the main mountain, never having learned
anything except how to stand up without being too
badly bruised. They then think they are experts and
can do no wrong.

And I do delight in going to Mad River Glen once in a
while where they DON'T allow snowboards.

Preaching/choir :-)

VtSkier wrote:
On 11/26/2010 12:35 PM, pigo wrote:
On Nov 26, 9:26 am, wrote:
VtSkier wrote:

I can go across a slope on my edges without turning.
Can't you?

As for the argument at hand.
I once said to a snowboard instructor friend of mine
that skis were always faster than snowboard. We then
did a run from the top of one lift to the bottom of
another on a slope that goes from moderate to fairly
gentle.

He smoked me.

The conditions we
Fresh tune for him
He was 20 years old (I was 60 at the time)
and he was used to going very fast on a board.

I think the question is still up in the air.

I think someone can build a board (say 200cm long)
with other features, like very little sidecut
and a fairly forward stance and carving board
binding with stiff boots and then he might be
able to keep up with task oriented speed skis.
IOW, I think it may be the equipment. 'course
big cojones help too.

I have found that there is always an exception just not necessarily
the rule.
One difference is in the stance of snowboarder vs skier they do
windtunnel testing to find right position of skier for max speed low
drag position. You do not go fast standing up. I can not think of
getting a boarder into a aerodynamic shape with out surgery or
being a double amputee. Also the real speed skiers use aerodynamic
faring on their body and test in windtunnels.- Hide quoted text -

Any efficient skier knows that skis are faster and more manuverable.

In learning to ski the object is to learn to turn. How fast going
"straight down" isn't an issue. Only snowboarders use that "logic".
You can put a brick on any sliding device and achieve that. LOL, they
kinda do!

Well, I think "How fast going 'straight down'" is the
issue of this thread, which is why I said what I did
about speed skiing and speed boarding in another post.

Your notes about boarders going straight down the
mountain is only half of their bad behavior. The other
half is skidding down the mountain on their heel
sides. If they all went straight down like a brick
with p-tex, they wouldn't f**k up the hill so much.
It's the heel-skidders (we call them groomers at
Killington) who make such a mess of the hill.

Since our hill doesn't prohibit snowboarders, I've
learned to put up with them and to find a few (very
few) that are good at and knowledgeable about their
sport. Curiously, I find that group among those who
have decided to snowboard after having skied for a
few years.

IMO, because skiing takes a while to get good at, you
have time to learn safety and etiquette surrounding
the sport. After 3 days of lessons and bumps on the
bunny hill, most snowboarders can take on and heel-
skid down the main mountain, never having learned
anything except how to stand up without being too
badly bruised. They then think they are experts and
can do no wrong.

And I do delight in going to Mad River Glen once in a
while where they DON'T allow snowboards.

When the teenage boys were all on skis, they sideslipped down everything just
like they do now on snowboards. Why blame the device for the actions of the
person. My theory is that Alta and others banned boards JUST to get rid of
teenage boys.

As more teenagers are choosing to ski rather than snowboard, I'm seeing more
skiers sideslipping down slopes they shouldn't be on. It's not the equipment.

downhill wrote:
Evojeesus wrote:
On Nov 26, 4:51 pm, VtSkier wrote:

I think the question is still up in the air.

Well, the question is still, have snowboarders ever beat skiers on
the same course? Case in point, Derby de la Meije 2008 (total
vertical depends on the year but can be over 1800m):

Fastest skier: 06:02
Fastest monoskier: 07:33
Fastest telemarker: 07:33
Fastest snowboarder: 08:52

These guys are all certifiably insane, to get the idea of the madness
involved, check out the winning run from 2009:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Erc3yLswnWk

=:-O

nice clip

snowfake the troll notice position of hands?

CErtainly, a snowboarder is at a distinct disadvantage in this race, since
polling and skating are used a lot. Which is not to say I think snowboarders are
faster than skiers.

I was wondering; given the same snow and path; which is faster Skis or
Snowboards?

I've read somewhere, there used to have the mixed skiing and
snowboarding "king of the mountain" competition in Europe (more likely
in France, iirc) some years ago, snowboarders beat skiers every timeï¼›
that's why there only separated skierX and snowboarderX competitions
nowadays.

No, it's the other way round. Â*The skiers always beat the
snowboarders. Â*I have a couple of friends who competed back in the
day. Â*The skiers didn't just beat the snowboarders, they smoked them.

That's what you say; nevertheless, the one I've read was another
person's saying, blah, blah, blah, same as you are. Really, they are
just people saying, I don't think either is true. But I think that as
snowboards can carve a fairly straight line (and skis have to turn to
carve), snowboards would be faster than skis.

Yes, that's what I say and that's what my co-worker who actually
competed in boarder x in the X-games says. We've had this
conversation before. As opposed to what you say, a known troll who
has frequently been proved wrong. Just like when you claimed that
Olympic downhill courses were mainly set on blue runs. Do you still
claim that b.s.?

This is just another example of how little you know about skiing and
snowboarding.

On absolute terms skis are faster (check out Derby de la Meije times
for proof), but snowboards may be faster on average in some terrain
(powder, near-endless vertical) as less they require less energy
expenditure from the rider and therefore less stops.

Given how snowboarders can break a carving on a dime, which gives them
the agility and confidence to run at the higher speed, I think that
snowboards are faster than skis in general sliding environments.

snowbender

Well that's another area where you would be wrong but my guess is
you're just spewing misinformation just to be a troll.

Same as the misinformation you're spewing, are you not a troll?

And what misinformation is that? That skis are faster than
snowboards? The world ski/snowboard speed records prove my point
without a doubt. You can argue all you want but once again, you are
wrong.

On the mountains you'd occasional see people bomb down the groomed
runs, snowboarders were almost always faster.

No, they are not. You are misinformed as usual.

Just try doing this google search: skis vs snowboards speed

Just point out to me one example where someone even claims snowboards
are faster.

And here's an interesting link that compares skier X times vs boarder
X times at the Vancouver Olympics. So this is a comparison of similar
levels of skiers and snowboarders.
http://wiki.fisski.com/index.php/Ski...Vancouver_2010

Men's boarder X times are about 90% of skier X times.
Women's boarder X times are about 85% of skier X times.

So, you have been proven wrong! You can either admit it or just keep
spewing your bull**** and look like an idiot. I think we all know the
path you will take.

On 11/26/10 11:38 AM, snoig wrote:

And here's an interesting link that compares skier X times vs boarder
X times at the Vancouver Olympics. So this is a comparison of similar
levels of skiers and snowboarders.
http://wiki.fisski.com/index.php/Ski...Vancouver_2010

Men's boarder X times are about 90% of skier X times.
Women's boarder X times are about 85% of skier X times.

IIRC the course sets favored boarders - they use those leaning gates
which offered no obstacle, whereas skiers had to deal with vertical
gates which should be an advantage to boarders. In spite of it skier
times are still better.

On 11/26/10 10:58 AM, downhill wrote:
VtSkier wrote:

boarder.


I don't doubt that.

There have been speed skiers since about 1860. There
has been a lot of development since then. I still think
you'll see the gap narrow. Will a boarder ever beat a
a skier in timed trials? I don't know, but it will be
interesting to watch them try. and you know they will
try.

As for aerodynamics and the testing of skiers in a
wind tunnel, I'm sure, if it hasn't been done yet, it
will be done with boarders.

the tear drop shape is most aerodynamic the tuck gets close to that, at
least a lot closer than any shape I have seen a boarder in.

Also the speed trial boarders (riffing from posted video) seem to be
mounting hard shell bindings nearly parallel to the board but slightly
offset to avoid being taken for a monoskier. Convergence. I think a
modified tele binding for the rear boot would allow a tuck. Equipment
evolution is obviously still very young.