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#11
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Arvin,
So are you just talking about making very small adjustments using the toes? I'm sure I do this, but not to move from edge to edge. And I'm a little confused about ankle vs. toes in your post. Beginners almost always have sore toes and heel lift because they haven't learned to use the front of their legs to pressure their boards. -- Robert |
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#12
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I went to a alpine snowboard clinic and one of the first
things that the instructor (Sean Cassidy) did was have everyone change their hardboots to walk mode (softing up the flex of the boot) so that they could work on flexing/extending their toes. This gives you a greater feel for the snow and a much finer control over your board - allowing you to adjust your turn radius, absorb bumps, and change edges more quickly than when using your hips/knees. I was at the same camp and in the same group as lonerider. I would add that the ankle action is not meant to replace hip and knee action... but to augment it. Sean was exaggerating ankle motion with us because most everyone in the camp was using the ankles too little or not at all - and you know the deal, when you are not doing something, an effective way to train yourself to do it, is to over-do it. Flexing the ankles along with knees and hips keeps the center of mass stacked up iover the edge... which allows you to add power to turns and tighten them up more. Also, with the center of mass in a neutral position, bumps don't knock you off balance so easy. BTW this approach helped me quite a bit in hardboots. I haven't been out in softies yet this season, but I am going to soon and see if any of the benefit crosses over. Because of this, I think this is why most hardbooters are unable to ride softboots (they've forgotten how to flex/extend their ankles), that and they are comparing their 10 year old, discount softboot gear with their top of the line, custom made and custom fitted hardboot gear. Many of the longtime Mt Hood hardbooters, if they even have soft gear, have stuff from the early 90's. No wonder they hate it! But yeah, people who ride only in super-stiff hardboots and rely solely on tipping and leaning and don't angulate are going to have a rough time in softies. They probably also have a rough time carving on less-than-decently-groomed trails too. Mike T |
#13
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Robert Stevahn wrote: On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 16:25:06 -0600, Neil Gendzwill wrote: It's completely true. Having to pull up on your toes is ridiculous - I can't think of a weaker way to use your legs, and for me that just leads to cramped calves. I have to agree with Neil. There is no reason to ever use your toes, even in soft boots. That's my story, and I'm sticking with it. -- Robert Heh... so you agree with the no ankle flexion/extension part of Neil's post, but not the part about all "soft" boots being inherently flawed for snowboarding because they are too soft (which is a valid personal opinion btw, just not the one I personally have). I'm not saying that you are only using your ankles to move the board from edge to edge, but using them together with your knees and hips to help control the edge angle. It's not so much giving you that much power as taking advantage of the extra point of articulation in your leg assembly (hips, knees and ankles) and allowing you to keep your weight stacked over the edge of the board and absorb shocks from the variable condition snow. It is very noticeable when you ignore your ankles and let them flop in the boot and when you flex/extend them with the turn. With hardboots, you can rely on the boots innate stiffness... but using your own stength to back it up a little is better because you have dynamic control of the boot flex and shock absorption. With a super-stiff boot there is a tendency to neglect using the ankles (as if you foot was in a cast). But in bumpy snow or with softboots... this ability to control you ankle flex/extension becomes more important. Maybe I'm not explaining it right... but that's what they taught at the camp Mike and I went to - the instructors were AASI III, CASI II/III certified and included current/former World Cup racers. |
#14
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Neil Gendzwill wrote: lonerider wrote: Being able to use your toes to pull up and push down is a key skill, and often neglected by stiff/hardboot riders who rely on their knee/hips too much and then are unable to snowboard when using medium/soft boots - they assume it's the boots that are fault - which is only partially true. It's completely true. Having to pull up on your toes is ridiculous - I can't think of a weaker way to use your legs, and for me that just leads to cramped calves. Hehe, so you are saying all of the people who can snowboard at expert level with freeride boots either 1) have super-calves! 2) hallucinating! Just kidding, I can see how freeride boots fail to satisfy your personal riding style/preferences... especially if you are trying to use them like alpine boots. It would be like trying to drive a car like a motorcycle (whoa... this thing is so hard to lean). Dang, bobjenney on BOL changed his avatar pic - otherwise I would have added a link to it. My personal belief is that you simply need to understand freeride boots in their own lift and not view them directly from a alpine perspective - of course I could be hallucinating (since I don't have super-strong calves) and therefore not only wrong... but insane! =] =] =] |
#15
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Waitaminnut. There's a big difference between anxle flexion/extension
and using your toes. Using your toes in softies to me means lifting up on the toe straps in order to drive the heel edge into the snow. Really you want to use your heel to drive the heel edge in, and your toe to drive the toe edge in. You want to be pushing down, not pulling up. Without flexible ankles in softies you can't do this as effectively, and even in hard boots you should have some ankle flex (even in ski boots). Did that make sense? I'm trying to say there's a difference between pulling up on the toe straps and flexing your ankle so that the heel can drive down (using the highback or boot cuff depending on hard or soft). FWIW I use pretty soft hardboots (224s) and seldom am on the groomed. Neil |
#16
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Neil Gendzwill wrote: Waitaminnut. There's a big difference between anxle flexion/extension and using your toes. Using your toes in softies to me means lifting up on the toe straps in order to drive the heel edge into the snow. Really you want to use your heel to drive the heel edge in, and your toe to drive the toe edge in. You want to be pushing down, not pulling up. Without flexible ankles in softies you can't do this as effectively, and even in hard boots you should have some ankle flex (even in ski boots). Did that make sense? I'm trying to say there's a difference between pulling up on the toe straps and flexing your ankle so that the heel can drive down (using the highback or boot cuff depending on hard or soft). FWIW I use pretty soft hardboots (224s) and seldom am on the groomed. Neil Yea sorry for the misunderstanding, I used the wrong terminology in my first post (wasn't describing it right). That's why I wrote a "reiteration/elaboration" posting soon after and switched to ankle/flexion for all future posts. Most of my discussion kind of pre-assumes that you are already an intermediate rider who uses the stiffness of the boot/highback to support you turns and applies toe/heel pressure to the toe/heel edge of the board. I'm not say you try to do a heelside by *only* lifting up your toes, but in the middle/end of a carve you can increase the tightness of your turn noticeable if you flex your ankle (which pulls your toes up in your boot). So my point is that which such a stiff boot people sometimes assume their ankles are locked in a position and neglect to use them in the way we are describing. Anyways, could you elaborate on needing flexible ankles in softboots? I would think that you would need "stronger" ankles more than flexible ones beause you have less "structural support". I have extremely flexible ankles (two bootfitter just commented in the last few months) probably from sprain/rolling my ankles too much in the past but I like stiffer boots myself because my ankles aren't as strong as I think some other peoples (I do a lot of strength training via balance boards and dynadisc to help improving my ankle strength and priopreception(sp?)). I play ice hockey (B level) and tie my skates rather loose at the bottom, but pretty tight on the last two eyelets to support my ankles... but I've heard several of the advanced/pro players barely tie their skates and have such strong ankles that they can keep themselves up all via ankle strength. |
#17
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lonerider wrote:
Anyways, could you elaborate on needing flexible ankles in softboots? I would think that you would need "stronger" ankles more than flexible ones beause you have less "structural support". I think "needing flexible ankles" implied the wrong thing, I meant more that you need to flex your ankles. I don't think they need to be abnormally flexible. Besides, strong and flexible aren't mutually exclusive. Caveat - anything I write about riding softboots should be taken with a hyooooge grain of salt as I don't ride them myself and haven't ridden them for 15 years. More modern equipment has probably changed things greatly. But when I was riding softies back in the stone age, I started by trying to do a lot of stuff with the feet, and ended up finding that it worked better to use my legs, with my feet/ankles getting involved mainly to allow the legs to do the bulk of the work. When I switched to hardboots, it wasn't that big of a leap for me. Neil |
#18
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Arvin,
I think I agree with you about the ankles but perhaps not the toes, or I am misunderstanding the toe part. I took some time to pay attention to my ankles and toes last night -- I definitely tend not to actively use the toes most of the time. I can feel them sitting there pressing passively against the bottom of the boot, but I am not gripping with them unless to make a correction. I do use the ankles to adjust the angle of the edge -- it makes sense since it is the closest joint to the board. But I tend to feel the ankle movements in my whole foot, not in the toes. This is with relatively stiff soft boots, flow bindings, and 30/20 angles. -- Robert |
#19
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Neil Gendzwill wrote: lonerider wrote: Anyways, could you elaborate on needing flexible ankles in softboots? I would think that you would need "stronger" ankles more than flexible ones beause you have less "structural support". I think "needing flexible ankles" implied the wrong thing, I meant more that you need to flex your ankles. I don't think they need to be abnormally flexible. Besides, strong and flexible aren't mutually exclusive. Ah yes, that's what I mean too... that you need to be able to "flex" your ankles and if the boots is *way* too stiff for you, you won't be able to flex it - that being said I don't think softboots in general can be that stiff for most people. For my personal experience, I am riding the AF600 alpine boots (compared to my old 224s) and I think they are a little too stiff for me as I have a little bit of trouble flexing my ankles on steeper terrain (I just got a pair of 324s that I want to compare). Yes, strong and flexible ankles aren't mutually exclusive - I'm just saying I figure strength is more important than "wide range of motion" especially from my personal experience as I have the latter more than the former. |
#20
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lonerider wrote:
that being said I don't think softboots in general can be that stiff for most people. Yeah, see I just don't know because I haven't ridden any of the modern stuff. I keep thinking I should try some new softies, but I have all this money tied up in hardboot gear, and I keep getting reports from people that for all the improvements they still have the weaknesses that caused me to switch. That being, strap pain and insufficient support for riding hard at speed. Also, I'm in love with the Intec step-in system and I don't think I could ever give it up. Neil |
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