Great NNN light touring boots?

Know any?

These are likely by far the most popular boots, the most important in
a maker's line. So there should be some real stand-outs. Far better
today than they ever were.

I had a pair of Merrell low-cut leather "loop style" Salomon light
tour boots.

Has there been something like that made since, or something better
even, in the most common NNN binding?

Why did they go to higher cuffs on most boots? Does a skier get
effective support or warmth from this?

I recently got a new pair of tour boots from the limited range I could
choose from. They're far heavier than anything I've had before. Why?

(They also have an almost-loose feeling heel---with a cuff clamp that
inadvertantly sort of fixes the loseness. But wouldn't a secure heel
be Job #1 in XC boot design?)

The situation makes me wonder. The ski biz is in trouble. Is there
anyone in the ski biz who is like the Japanese in the car biz? ---Who
makes a great, high standard product suitable for the real world? The
esoteric side of a biz will never keep a company from bankruptcy. Will
it? "Jib" skis---but no wonderful tour boot?

--JP

PS: The greatness of XC is in its lightness. The support of an XC boot
comes from its sole and heel. Warmth comes from motion.

But really 40% of XC stability comes from the ski, 45% comes from the
skier. 5% from the boot.

Are there functional reasons for XC light tour boots becoming heavier
and taller? Is it only fad/image/fear? --That is, ignorant customers
see a stouter boot as being better for them. In an unclerked situation
perhaps stouter will always win. Less isn't more to the uneducated.

But if you want to enjoy skiing and if you might go on a couple-hour
outing sometime, then less IS more.

--JP
oyb

Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com) wrote:
PS: The greatness of XC is in its lightness. The support of an XC boot
comes from its sole and heel. Warmth comes from motion.

But really 40% of XC stability comes from the ski, 45% comes from the
skier. 5% from the boot.

Are there functional reasons for XC light tour boots becoming heavier
and taller? Is it only fad/image/fear? --That is, ignorant customers
see a stouter boot as being better for them. In an unclerked situation
perhaps stouter will always win. Less isn't more to the uneducated.

But if you want to enjoy skiing and if you might go on a couple-hour
outing sometime, then less IS more.

Less is more to such a degree that you should _always_ ski in the
lightest/skinniest/fastest gear you can handle, even for
backcountry/mountain trips.

In really deep powder this does mean fat touring skis, but you should
still try find a lightweight pair.

Terje

(Who have skied a few 1000 km of backcountry/mountain, outside all set
tracks using my competition xc gear. :-)

--
-
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

Strikes me that when you look at Alpina NNN BC they've been getting
lighter rather than heavier. Maybe they're leaving the beefy field to
3 pin/cable/plate setups.

Any case, hi everyone from a group newbie. I'm a BC/tele fan here
DownUnder and plan to take up skating next season as well.

Cheers,

Ern

On Dec 7, 8:43 pm, Terje Mathisen
wrote:
Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com) wrote:

PS: The greatness of XC is in its lightness. The support of an XC boot
comes from its sole and heel. Warmth comes from motion.

But really 40% of XC stability comes from the ski, 45% comes from the
skier. 5% from the boot.

Are there functional reasons for XC light tour boots becoming heavier
and taller? Is it only fad/image/fear? --That is, ignorant customers
see a stouter boot as being better for them. In an unclerked situation
perhaps stouter will always win. Less isn't more to the uneducated.

But if you want to enjoy skiing and if you might go on a couple-hour
outing sometime, then less IS more.

Less is more to such a degree that you should _always_ ski in the
lightest/skinniest/fastest gear you can handle, even for
backcountry/mountain trips.

In really deep powder this does mean fat touring skis, but you should
still try find a lightweight pair.

Terje

(Who have skied a few 1000 km of backcountry/mountain, outside all set
tracks using my competition xc gear. :-)

--
-
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

On Dec 7, 11:49 pm, ziggy99 wrote:
Strikes me that when you look at Alpina NNN BC they've been getting
lighter rather than heavier. Maybe they're leaving the beefy field to
3 pin/cable/plate setups.

Any case, hi everyone from a group newbie. I'm a BC/tele fan here
DownUnder and plan to take up skating next season as well.

Cheers,

Ern

Hi and welcome!

I don't follow the BC scene as I'm into light touring in mellow
terrain. It's interesting what you observe, though. BC might be
getting lighter while LT gets heavier! Crazy!

LT is far more in the "mass market" domain, so perhaps fads/fears hit
there harder. Maybe stiff/higher sells better to unadvised beginners
who are shopping/browsing in large supermarkets without knowledgeable
staff.

--JP

On Thu, 6 Dec 2007, Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com) wrote:

Know any?


I have NNN-2 bindings on all my skis and ice-skates. My latest boots
are the Alpina TR40 touring. I saw them on sale in Alberta.
They were a bit too stiff with the plastic
cuff, so I removed it. My only complain is that the soles are a
little narrow and slippery (as are all NNN2 boots)

In 1999 I picked up some nice leather Alfa boots in Norway.
I don't think they are sold in North America. Photo at:
http://www.dermott.ca/ski/zandstra.jpg

Although this is not a factor for racing boots, comfortable and safe
walking to the snow or ice is important to me, . Most soles are a bit
too narrow and slippery for walking on slippery trails. Of course, if it
is really icy I'll put out my "Icers":
http://www.dermott.ca/ski/icers.jpg

I was thinking the NNN-BC boots would be more walk-friendly. There are
lighter weight NNN-BC boots now. The Swedish boot company Lundhags now
makes a boot especially for nordic ice skating (where walking between
lakes is common): the X-Arc. It should be good for ski touring also. But
it is not clear whether the X-Arc is NNN-BC or Salomon X-Adventure. Maybe
they have 2 versions?

This description from Nordic Skater lists them as
Salomon X-Adv: http://www.nordicskater.com/lundhags/index.html

But this from Lundhags seems to be NNN-BC (Rottefella-BC)
http://shop.lundhags.se/1324-16-64.html

--

David Dermott , Wolfville Ridge, Nova Scotia, Canada
WWW pages: http://www.dermott.ca/index.html

On Dec 8, 8:10 pm, David Dermott wrote:
On Thu, 6 Dec 2007, Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com) wrote:

Know any?

I have NNN-2 bindings on all my skis and ice-skates. My latest boots
are the Alpina TR40 touring. I saw them on sale in Alberta.
They were a bit too stiff with the plastic
cuff, so I removed it. My only complain is that the soles are a
little narrow and slippery (as are all NNN2 boots)

I ordered a pair and sent em back---I forget the problem. The new TR50
looks a bit different. I suppose these are all meant to be Combis---
with the cuff. The cuff should be easily removeable---by a half
rotation, etc.

HAS ANYONE TRIED MODDING THEIR BOOTS? I'm thinking that the biggest
DISASTER of this new era of tour boot is the HEEL SLIP resulting from
the various goofy speedlace systems and heel design. A strap over the
instep might be a solution. My shop pals looked aghast at me for
suggesting it, tho---you void the warranty! I was thinking that I
could maybe rig something out of the cuff and strap.

I've been using a set of Rossi X7 Classics so far this year. It looks
like most NNN combi's are lower. Sigh. Tall is bad. Using the cuff
RUINS all hope of good classic technique. (WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?)
So I've already just been skiing with the strap off and cuff tilted
back.

But I want at least to know I have a keeper boot fundamentally before
I start chopping one up.

A jiffy mod might be good for the public to know. It seems likely that
any real skier may well end up wanting to do such a "strap over
instep" mod if buying ANY of this style of boot.

In 1999 I picked up some nice leather Alfa boots in Norway.
I don't think they are sold in North America. Photo at:
http://www.dermott.ca/ski/zandstra.jpg

Look good! Like my old Merrells---except the M's went under the ankle
bone. Ah, what beauts they were. That's free motion for ya! Perfectly
stable for everything but bumps'n'crud. C'mon!

At least they have real lacing, to control the heel. Of course, only
the top-of-instep lace matters in that regard.

Although this is not a factor for racing boots, comfortable and safe
walking to the snow or ice is important to me, . Most soles are a bit
too narrow and slippery for walking on slippery trails. Of course, if it
is really icy I'll put out my "Icers":
http://www.dermott.ca/ski/icers.jpg

I was thinking the NNN-BC boots would be more walk-friendly. There are
lighter weight NNN-BC boots now.

Isn't a BC binding overkill for anything but bumps'n'crud? NNN2 is
SPOT ON for 90% of tour-skiing---half the weight and bulk and expense
in both binding and boot.

The Swedish boot company Lundhags now
makes a boot especially for nordic ice skating (where walking between
lakes is common): the X-Arc. It should be good for ski touring also. But
it is not clear whether the X-Arc is NNN-BC or Salomon X-Adventure. Maybe
they have 2 versions?

This description from Nordic Skater lists them as
Salomon X-Adv:http://www.nordicskater.com/lundhags/index.html

But this from Lundhags seems to be NNN-BC (Rottefella-BC)http://shop.lundhags.se/1324-16-64.html

That boot looks pretty nice---especially for big hills. Probably even
doubleblackdiamonds.

What's with the HUGE tall lugs? I see these on some new RACE boots,
too. Taller over the ski is better? I never knew. Heavier is better,
too? Surprises every day.

A friend was skiing trails with me a year ago and he had what looked
like fairly stout leather boots but not too much so. He was
kickin''n'glidin' decently. They were Asolo Extremes! I hadn't seen
them in use for years. Dang, those are my old tele bump boots! I could
ski anything in those, no problem, so could so many others. I still
have mine. Who knows maybe they're lighter than these new combi boots!
Wouldn't that be a laugh. (I want my old Merrells!)

The max crazies eventually started using downhill skis with tele
bindings then they started putting plastic cuffs on their Extremes.
Then the big new gear came out. But they probably don't ski ANY
trails. Altho I never skied trails with my Extremes. Heck, they were
too big and stout. I skied up and down Breckenridge in my classic
racing stuff.

Anything with support over the ankle is pretty much overkill and
deadweight except for steep icy crud bumps. Right?

--JP

(I was using my wife's acc't)

--

David Dermott , Wolfville Ridge, Nova Scotia, Canada
WWW pages:http://www.dermott.ca/index.html

On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 08:47:25 -0800 (PST), "Jeff Potter (of
OutYourBackdoor.com)" wrote:

On Dec 8, 8:10 pm, David Dermott wrote:
On Thu, 6 Dec 2007, Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com) wrote:

Know any?

I have NNN-2 bindings on all my skis and ice-skates. My latest boots
are the Alpina TR40 touring. I saw them on sale in Alberta.
They were a bit too stiff with the plastic
cuff, so I removed it. My only complain is that the soles are a
little narrow and slippery (as are all NNN2 boots)

I ordered a pair and sent em back---I forget the problem. The new TR50
looks a bit different. I suppose these are all meant to be Combis---
with the cuff. The cuff should be easily removeable---by a half
rotation, etc.

HAS ANYONE TRIED MODDING THEIR BOOTS? I'm thinking that the biggest
DISASTER of this new era of tour boot is the HEEL SLIP resulting from
the various goofy speedlace systems and heel design. A strap over the
instep might be a solution. My shop pals looked aghast at me for
suggesting it, tho---you void the warranty! I was thinking that I
could maybe rig something out of the cuff and strap.

I've been using a set of Rossi X7 Classics so far this year. It looks
like most NNN combi's are lower. Sigh. Tall is bad. Using the cuff
RUINS all hope of good classic technique. (WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?)
So I've already just been skiing with the strap off and cuff tilted
back.

It's so amusing reading your stuff Jeff. Lots of questions that are
reallys statements, and so many manufacturers and people out there
just don't have a clue compared to what you know.

Did you ever find a decent pair of gloves? I remember you
asking/telling us that so much of the stuff on the market today is
crap.

JFT

On Dec 13, 1:49 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:
On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 08:47:25 -0800 (PST), "Jeff Potter (of



OutYourBackdoor.com)" wrote:
On Dec 8, 8:10 pm, David Dermott wrote:
On Thu, 6 Dec 2007, Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com) wrote:

Know any?

I have NNN-2 bindings on all my skis and ice-skates. My latest boots
are the Alpina TR40 touring. I saw them on sale in Alberta.
They were a bit too stiff with the plastic
cuff, so I removed it. My only complain is that the soles are a
little narrow and slippery (as are all NNN2 boots)

I ordered a pair and sent em back---I forget the problem. The new TR50
looks a bit different. I suppose these are all meant to be Combis---
with the cuff. The cuff should be easily removeable---by a half
rotation, etc.

HAS ANYONE TRIED MODDING THEIR BOOTS? I'm thinking that the biggest
DISASTER of this new era of tour boot is the HEEL SLIP resulting from
the various goofy speedlace systems and heel design. A strap over the
instep might be a solution. My shop pals looked aghast at me for
suggesting it, tho---you void the warranty! I was thinking that I
could maybe rig something out of the cuff and strap.

I've been using a set of Rossi X7 Classics so far this year. It looks
like most NNN combi's are lower. Sigh. Tall is bad. Using the cuff
RUINS all hope of good classic technique. (WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?)
So I've already just been skiing with the strap off and cuff tilted
back.

It's so amusing reading your stuff Jeff. Lots of questions that are
reallys statements, and so many manufacturers and people out there
just don't have a clue compared to what you know.

Did you ever find a decent pair of gloves? I remember you
asking/telling us that so much of the stuff on the market today is
crap.

JFT

Those are lame remarks, JFT, as usual. Why can't you be specific about
my non-questions? (There's a question, not a statement---but it
probably has an obvious answer: you're not specific because you like
to make inconsequent flames.)

Trends in XC ski stuff for sale in the USA are infamous for being
awkward. (Like all the black clothing.)

And, no, I haven't found good gloves yet. I do notice that weird water-
absorbing faux-leather is on most gloves these days. My kid borrowed
mine the other day and gave em back---"These are terrible! One
snowball and they're drenched!" It seems like its their loss compared
to gloves of 10 years ago.

I have new tour skis and boots---heavier than my great old stuff---a
BAD design approach for XC, off the cuff---but I'll give em a chance.
In the meantime I'll keep my eyes out for NOS. --I'd love to compare
it all head to head. (I'm easing off my ban on red ski boots for
touring...any port in a storm.)

--JP

On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 18:06:25 -0800 (PST), "Jeff Potter (of
OutYourBackdoor.com)" wrote:


Those are lame remarks, JFT, as usual. Why can't you be specific about
my non-questions?

Why can't you phrase your statements as statements rather than
starting as questions that devolve into rants?

(There's a question, not a statement---but it
probably has an obvious answer: you're not specific because you like
to make inconsequent flames.)

And, no, I haven't found good gloves yet. I do notice that weird water-
absorbing faux-leather is on most gloves these days. My kid borrowed
mine the other day and gave em back---"These are terrible! One
snowball and they're drenched!" It seems like its their loss compared
to gloves of 10 years ago.

Glad to hear you're teaching your kid well -- he can look forward to
complaining about how the modern world doesnt' suit them and that so
many products suck worse than what they and you used back in the day.
Great. He'll thank you for that.

Trends in XC ski stuff for sale in the USA are infamous for being
awkward. (Like all the black clothing.)

What is awkward about all black? Worry about getting hit by a car
while skiing?

If you have likes and dislikes, that's fine. But so much of your
dislikes are irrational.

JFT