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#11
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BT ... yep it's me, and apparently you know my kid brother.
I'm thinking maybe I should have dumbed down my original post ... because it got someone WAY off on the wrong track. So let me simplify my views: Composite products are made of stuff like fiberglass, graphite, Kevlar, epoxy-resins, Nomex, uerathane (sp?). When you go to buy a medium sized composite bike frame from company A, you don't have to choose between 4 or 5 frames. They are all the same. That's good. When you go to buy a 165 cm composite pole from company B, you don't have to choose between 4 or 5 poles. They are all the same. That's good. When you go to buy a 192 cm medium flex composite classic ski, you HAVE to choose between 4 or 5 pairs of skis. Because all the skis are likely all very different. That's bad. That's dumb. It's 2004 .... and that's ridiculous. Whereas the companies that make the bike frames and ski poles grasp the idea of quality control, ski companies don't. If ski companies made quality control a priority, then the quality of top end racing skis would be little different between what the World Cup red group gets and what the full price paying citizen racer, parent or junior gets at the small ski shop. Picking skis would be unnecessary. A medium flex 192 would be the same for everyone. If there is any disrespect it is on the part of the ski companies. Buy not pushing quality control they have a huge difference in the quality of the skis they produce. The best skis go to the elite. And the bad ones, I surely bet DO NOT go to the dumpster. They are mixed with the remainder and sent down the retail chain to the poor suckers paying full price. I've definitely seen this with my own eyes. And from reading this dumbed down post - someone still thinks I'm saying the USST does not get good skis ... they are definitely WAY out in orbit. |
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#12
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Tim Kelley wrote:
When you go to buy a 192 cm medium flex composite classic ski, you HAVE to choose between 4 or 5 pairs of skis. Because all the skis are likely all very different. That's bad. That's dumb. It's 2004 ... and that's ridiculous. besides the very definite quality control issues, you gotta admit, not all skiers are built like ellofson (was). you don't want all 192cm skis to be flexed the same. you need some really stiff skis for the kleidsdales, you need some softer flexes for the hs racer who hasn't begun to fill out yet. so a (controlled) variety of flexes is good. especially for the classic skis. i wish some reps would chime in here. i have heard that even racing skis are made as individuals, flex tested and then later paired up. with that kind of hunt and peck pairing going on, it is surprising there are so many good skis out there. i have never skied a pro team hand picked ski, so maybe i don't know how good it can get. but i have been in races where i have really hit the wax right and out glided my citizen skier competition, like at the city of lakes loppet last year. i was skiing with my betters for way longer than i ever had. (too bad i didn't have the training under my belt to put the hammer down when they broke away from me towards the end!) Jim Farrell ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
#13
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jim farrell wrote:
[snip] but i have been in races where i have really hit the wax right and out glided my citizen skier competition, like at the city of lakes loppet last year. i was skiing with my betters for way longer than i ever had. (too bad i didn't have the training under my belt to put the hammer down when they broke away from me towards the end!) Jim Farrell I think you may have hit the more important thing here. Assuming you have someone like Gear West or Finn Sisu (sorry to be provincial but they are, IMHO, two of the best shops in North America) pick a pair of skis that are flexed right for you, the difference between good skis and lightning fast skis is the grind and the wax. Read back thru some of Zack's posts about hitting or missing the wax. I really don't think Fischer or Rossi lay up different skis for different groups. I think picking skis is an artform - which is why the wax techs are so valued. Ordering your skis mail order or buying them at a general outdoors store is probably an invitation to slow skis. Marsh |
#14
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When you go to buy a medium sized composite bike frame from company
A, you don't have to choose between 4 or 5 frames. They are all the same. That's good. When you go to buy a 165 cm composite pole from company B, you don't have to choose between 4 or 5 poles. They are all the same. That's good. When you go to buy a 192 cm medium flex composite classic ski, you HAVE to choose between 4 or 5 pairs of skis. Because all the skis are likely all very different. That's bad. That's dumb. It's 2004 .. and that's ridiculous. Whereas the companies that make the bike frames and ski poles grasp the idea of quality control, ski companies don't. Tim, I agree with everything you've said in this thread, but I wonder if you and many of us are too hard on the ski companies. I think that Alpine and Telemark skis don't have the same problems, and that XC touring skis don't have much problem. As far as I know, the quality problem is limited to the superlightweight racing skis. Frankly, I think it's sort of a miracle that I can even get a product that works well for years and is so light that I can barely feel the weight. Is it not possible that the technology is just not available to combine the quality that we all want with the super performance that we do get with a well-chosen pair? I know from the little bit of cooking that I do, that it's easier to screw up the proportions when mixing smaller quantities. Is it not the same for skis? I'll say that since this quality problem _does_ exist, that the ski companies should have more inspections and that the bad skis should never leave the factory, and clearly some _DO_ get out into the retail channel - and that's bad for the sport. Our local outdoor superstore (REI), lets buyers return stuff for any reason. People can buy, try, and return skis for full credit. That should be more common. If I were buying from some small shop and they told me that I could do that if I bought skis of brand Y but not of brand X, I'd be heavily inclined to buy the Y's. Even tho I have a pretty good eye for choosing skis, I'm never sure til I've tried a pair. You're sure right when you mentioned the disconnect between ski quality levels vs no chance to try before you buy. This is a great thread - thanks for starting it. Erik |
#15
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Quality control is definitely the main issue here, with poor shop practices
running a close second. When I worked as a ski tech, we noticed that some makes of backcountry/telemark skis didn't have a consistent amount of base material over the length of the ski. Two or three tune-ups and the core materials would start showing through in places. Compounding the quality issue is the fact that so few techs know how to properly locate nordic bindings. Using the ski's balance point will result in mis-located bindings about 90% of the time (Marty Hall, I think, wrote a piece about this for Cross Country Skier back in the 80's). And yet, the balance point myth continues to be accepted as Gospel in most shops. Perhaps someone on the "inside" at one of the "Big 3" ski companies (Atomic, Fischer, Madshus) could tell us if they are using any QC tools like S.P.C. (statistical process control)? -JJ "Erik Brooks" wrote in message news:001201c4b91d$4aa453d0$0a0110ac@Merlin... When you go to buy a medium sized composite bike frame from company A, you don't have to choose between 4 or 5 frames. They are all the same. That's good. When you go to buy a 165 cm composite pole from company B, you don't have to choose between 4 or 5 poles. They are all the same. That's good. When you go to buy a 192 cm medium flex composite classic ski, you HAVE to choose between 4 or 5 pairs of skis. Because all the skis are likely all very different. That's bad. That's dumb. It's 2004 .. and that's ridiculous. Whereas the companies that make the bike frames and ski poles grasp the idea of quality control, ski companies don't. Tim, I agree with everything you've said in this thread, but I wonder if you and many of us are too hard on the ski companies. I think that Alpine and Telemark skis don't have the same problems, and that XC touring skis don't have much problem. As far as I know, the quality problem is limited to the superlightweight racing skis. Frankly, I think it's sort of a miracle that I can even get a product that works well for years and is so light that I can barely feel the weight. Is it not possible that the technology is just not available to combine the quality that we all want with the super performance that we do get with a well-chosen pair? I know from the little bit of cooking that I do, that it's easier to screw up the proportions when mixing smaller quantities. Is it not the same for skis? I'll say that since this quality problem _does_ exist, that the ski companies should have more inspections and that the bad skis should never leave the factory, and clearly some _DO_ get out into the retail channel - and that's bad for the sport. Our local outdoor superstore (REI), lets buyers return stuff for any reason. People can buy, try, and return skis for full credit. That should be more common. If I were buying from some small shop and they told me that I could do that if I bought skis of brand Y but not of brand X, I'd be heavily inclined to buy the Y's. Even tho I have a pretty good eye for choosing skis, I'm never sure til I've tried a pair. You're sure right when you mentioned the disconnect between ski quality levels vs no chance to try before you buy. This is a great thread - thanks for starting it. Erik |
#16
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For years, my best pair of (skate) skis were some factory seconds with
a small circle stamped in the tail. Kind of weird. -My classic skis seem to get better with each pair I buy. I'm really happy with the skis I got last year (both the cold and warm pairs). In fact others have noticed my skis are fast too. -I'm a little more flexible (less anal) about my skate skis. It seems a little too soft or too hard both glide well and handle well for me, but maybe I haven't developed the "taste" for really fast skis. I can certainly tell if skis don't handle well in certain conditions and some of my old skis plowed like an Iowa farmer, but it's hard for me to tell if my "skis" are slightly slow (or if it's my grind, wax, or heaven forbid, my conditioning.) Jay Wenner |
#17
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That was the same pair of skis that Carl Swenson had when he took 5th in
the 50km.... -Nathan "Eric Shmo Chandler" wrote in message om... my point is this, our national team skiers are getting skis as good or better than any other national team out there. the absolute best skis go to the superstars, like sommerfelt, fredricksson, auckland, freeman... Gotta admit that Johnny Spillane sure looked like he had rocket skis when he won his gold in Nordic Combined at the Worlds. Eric Chandler |
#18
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"Sly D. Skeez" wrote in message om... For years, my best pair of (skate) skis were some factory seconds with a small circle stamped in the tail. Kind of weird. Some years ago when some theiving swine stole my skis from near the finish line at the World Masters event I went to a ski factory shop at nearby Cortina and told my story. I did the squeeze tests and the paper slide tests and selected four pairs of classic skis off the rack for their techie to test. He led me into their back room checked the numbers matched then put them on a shadowgraph display to prove their un weighted profile matched. He rejected two pairs and sent me back outside with them. I dont know what he then tested but he finally appeared with one pair, gave me a discounted price and said these are just right for you. They were. The remaining pair went into the skip for disposal. I asked about the skip being full and he explained these were not top line skis but every pair despatched from that factory went thru the same testing that mine had received. |
#19
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Nathan,
Wow - that's amazing. The best skiers in the country sharing the same pair of race skis. What do you think was so special about these skis? Grind? Flex pattern? Residual wax affect? And why do you think it was that these guys didn't have more skis just like this fast pair? Tim |
#20
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On 25 Oct 2004 18:28:35 -0700, "Tim Kelley"
wrote: Nathan, Wow - that's amazing. The best skiers in the country sharing the same pair of race skis. What do you think was so special about these skis? Grind? Flex pattern? Supposedly there was a lot of ski sharing at the most recent Olympics, with Bjorndalen's Rossignols used by several other skiers from his country. JT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com **************************** |
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