A quick thanks to all

I had a chance to think about your advice, WHILE skiing.

foot2foot wrote:

"Lisa Horton" wrote in message
...
. All the info is blending into a blur of "hands
forward, weight centered, stand up and do that
thing with your foot where you feel the edge biting
into the snow".

For a beginner, or semi newbie, or olympic racers for
nigh on 40 plus years, as far as fore/aft balance, as
forward as you can get is preferable. It frees up the
tails. There are times when you want to be centered,
but not yet. Get as forward as you can on the skis.
That way you won't fall backward.

This time, I had no trouble with forward/back balance. Well, except a
couple of times when I hit a very slow spot which shifted my weight
forward. But no trouble at all with the back seat.


As far as side to side balance, use a shoulder wide stance
and keep your body centered between the skis at lower
speeds. In this way you'll be crossed over either ski, as
your body must be on the left side of the skis to turn left,
and on the right side of the skis to turn right. .

That shoulder wide stance seems to be what is natural for my body.
Almost every time I looked at my stance width, it was about shoulder
wide. I'm not sure I exactly understand the "crossover" term. But it
doesn't seem to me that you COULD turn left without your weight being to
the left. This part seems natural and intuitive.


At higher speeds, simply move only *the hips* toward the
inside of the turn, while mostly leaving the shoulders over
the skis.

At my level, not too much high speed. More like slow and less slow
But I did have a chance to try this and think about this at a (for me)
higher rate of speed. Nice.


Use knee angulation to bring the ski(s) up on edge.

Here you're using body position, weight distribution,
angulation and crossover.

Twist the whole leg(s) in the direction you want to go
if you so desire.

Once the skis start turning, I observe that I seem to turn my whole body
in the direction of the turn, with the body rotation coming from the
hips. Not sure if this is right...

Lisa

"Lisa Horton" wrote in message

This time, I had no trouble with forward/back balance. Well, except a
couple of times when I hit a very slow spot which shifted my weight
forward. But no trouble at all with the back seat.

The slowing down is spring snow, which exaggerates the
effects of the following rule. In most conditions you won't
notice it.

It is a rule of all sliding things, surfing, wakeboarding or
water skiing, sledding, whatever. Forward slows you
down, back speeds you up.

But, once again, the last place you want to be is in the
back seat. This rule shows why, when you get too far
back, the skis shoot out from under you.

Since you can get and stay forward now, perhaps you're
well ready to add to your skills in the weight distribution
department.

PSIA will recommend that you try to stay in the "sweet
spot", which is the absolute center of the ski. Racers these
days try to do this as well. In older times, racers were
mostly forward on their skis.

I, when working on my carving, have learned that I need
to position my foot so that it lines up with my leg and body,
so that all the bones of that whole side of my body are
balanced over the center of the ski. When I find this point,
and I edge the ski with a little knee, or hip angulation, or
both, the skis absolutely take off like a rocket, and I can
feel it. The fastest I've gone this year by carving in this way
was 60.5 MPH. I don't think I could have gone that fast on
a flat ski in the conditions I had at that time. In fact, had the
skis been flat, they probably would have been unstable.

There is an interesting thing you can try. Stand on one ski
and twist the leg one way, then the other. Look at the
pattern you make in the snow. If you leave "windshield
wiper" marks in the snow that are wide at the tip and
narrow at the tail, you're turning from the back seat. If
you leave windshield wiper marks that are narrow at the
rear, and wide at the front, your weight is forward on the
ski. If you make "butterfly" impressions on the snow, you
can then see that the pivot point for the ski is directly
below your foot. This is the place where it is easiest to
steer the ski.

There are times to be forward. There are times to be in
the sweet spot. There are also a few times when you
might want to be *a little bit* back.


That shoulder wide stance seems to be what is natural for my body.
Almost every time I looked at my stance width, it was about shoulder
wide. I'm not sure I exactly understand the "crossover" term. But it
doesn't seem to me that you COULD turn left without your weight being to
the left. This part seems natural and intuitive.


In order of importance, element number one is body
position, or home position, from which balance is obtained
and managed. Balance comes out of maintaining body
position.

Number two is crossover. Nothing else will work if
you are not crossed over the skis.

In order to turn right, you must have your body on
the right side of the skis. To turn left, you must have
your body on the left side of the skis. Without this,
turning is not possible.

You "cross your body over" the skis from turn to
turn. You can also cross the *skis under* your
body as you make really short turns, while leaving
your body in the same place from turn to turn. This
is called cross under, but the principle is the same.

This does come naturally for many people, but not
for all. You must at least be aware of it's necessity,
then by all means, just let it happen. If you ever get
locked up in the fall line headed down the hill, it's
because you're not crossed over *either ski* (you're
square on top of both, instead of off to the side of
the skis one way or the other). So, just fix it,
just crossover, and you'll be able to turn out of the
fall line.

It's usually best to tell a beginner to simply keep their
body between the skis. Once the person can ski,
you can tell them what's really going on, and that
"what" is crossover.


(me, on hip angulation)::


At higher speeds, simply move only *the hips* toward the
inside of the turn, while mostly leaving the shoulders over
the skis.

Lisa:

At my level, not too much high speed. More like slow and less slow
But I did have a chance to try this and think about this at a (for me)
higher rate of speed. Nice.


Sideslipping straight down a fairly steep incline is a
good way to get familiar with knee and hip angulation.
Hips away from the slope to start the slide, hips toward,
or into the slope to stop. The shoulders stay over the skis.
If you look at a picture of just about any skier from any
era in a turn, you can see the hip angulation, and the
shoulders staying more or less over the skis. You can
see this especially in older pictures. Today racers hold
basically this same position, but the skis are so good that
the skier will move his whole body quite far into the
center of the turn. You can still see that the hips are
farther into the center of the turn than the shoulders.


Once the skis start turning, I observe that I seem to turn my whole body
in the direction of the turn, with the body rotation coming from the
hips. Not sure if this is right...

Lisa


It sounds like you might be rotating all the way through
the turn.

Let's move to another element, rotation and counter
rotation. It's possible to turn the skis by turning the
shoulders, though there are better ways to do it, like
steering. Rotation is turning the shoulders in the
direction you want the skis to go. Counter rotation is
turning the skis in the *opposite* direction you want the
skis to go. Believe it or not, if you turn the shoulders the
opposite way you want the skis to go, and you're sort of
"disconnected" at the waist, (upper and lower body
move separately) the skis will turn that way that you
want to go.

As you turn the shoulders, generally the hips will follow.

It's a natural action/reaction thing. If you twist your
shoulders one way, the feet want to turn the opposite
way. Jump up in the air and turn *only your shoulders*
left. Notice that your feet go right automatically, if
you're relaxed in the waist.

So, as opposed to turning the skis with just the
shoulders, use rotation and counter rotation to facilitate
the turning of the skis.

When you start the turn, you might try rotating for
the first half of the turn, then counter rotating for the
second half. People talk about "keep body facing down
the hill", "quiet upper body", and so on. Really, it depends
on what you want to do. Once you get the feeling for how
your shoulder rotation can affect the turn, you can use it
any way you want to, whenever you want to.

As far as turning from the hips, you can if you want to,
but don't ever lose sight of the importance of steering,
something which I've come to realize is a serious
problem with my own skiing. I don't have it like I should.
You can in fact stand on the ski and slip it, or bend it and
ride it, but to make short radius turns, in situations like
moguls, you simply must steer aggressively. Try to learn
to turn from the legs, with the upper body, as well as the
hips staying relatively in place. I'm saying simply learn
to *be able* to do this.

It sounds as if you are standing on the ski and riding it
at this point, as well you should. Now that you can ski,
try to add some flexion and extension, and steering as
well. Simply make a sort of little hop, then steer the
skis. This is called an "up unweight" a way in which
you can use the elements of flexion and extention.

One more comment on turning from the hips, and an
element called lead change. You must put the new inside
ski ahead of the outside ski somewhere around the point
of crossover. You "change the lead", or lead with the
inside ski. The inside ski needs to be ahead of the
outside ski as you turn.

A neat trick to use is, when starting a new turn, push the
inside *hip* ahead of the outside, into the new turn. This
move can cause the crossover/edge change and turn
almost all by itself. This is a very powerful move. You
don't need to flex or extend, or unweight to turn in this
way, but again, you don't want to lose sight of steering
and flexion/extension. Avoid getting caught up in only a
few elements. Use them all.

I've suggested you learn to not turn from the hip, then
told you how to turn from the hip. There truly can be
a time for everything and anything. Ski how you like to.
But be aware of all the different ways that you can,
and be able to do them.

Just a comment or two re your other reply in the above
thread.

It's great that you've been able to feel the stability and
strength hand position brings you. To some it's useful to
think of keeping your hands where you can see them. It's
basic body position, the *most* important thing in skiing.

Also, being able to "wind up" a turn with a bit of a slip,
or a pivot or whatever, is actually a more advanced skill
than simply carrying a turn across and up the hill.
Carrying a turn up the hill is a beginner trick to use
because you *can't* wind up a turn yet. Well done.

It sounds like you're well able to balance on the outside
ski now, the next step would be to learn to feel and use
the pinky edge of the inside ski as well. You can
experiment with this by traversing on only the uphill
ski, trying to focus on putting all your weight on the
pinky edge of that foot. Or, sideslipping on only the
uphill foot, weight on the pinky edge side of your foot.
You need to develop strength on that side of your foot
and leg in order to be able to do this.

Learn to use the little toe ball of your foot, as well as
the big toe ball. But, you needn't get in too much of
a hurry. One day in the future, you *will* be working
on this.

To give you a bit of a perspective on my own skiing,
lately I've been trying to improve my skiing in bumps,
and steeps, which usually go hand in hand. For *these*
conditions, I'm having success by facing straight down
the hill, hands forward, reaching far ahead for the next
pole plant which starts the next turn, shoulders *and* hips
straight ahead and not turning. All the turning is coming
only from the legs, using quick, sharp steering movements
coupled with flexion and/or extension to unweight the skis.
I try to keep my body forward even though I'm trying to
stay on the sweet spot of the skis.

The two items I so badly need now are the ones that I've
been missing for so very long. Steering, and flexion and
extention to unweight the skis. I've especially lacked an
up unweight. Don't let this happen to you. Learn and use
all the elements.

These are techniques which work *in the bumps*. They
don't necessarily apply in every situation. There are many
other ways to blend the elements in order to turn the skis.
I don't use these exact blends in other conditions.

BTW, there's no "right". There are only the elements
of the mechanics of skiing. They are *oh* so few,
probably only around seven or so, and they are oh so
simple. You make the call.

foot2foot wrote:

PSIA will recommend that you try to stay in the "sweet
spot", which is the absolute center of the ski. Racers these
days try to do this as well. In older times, racers were
mostly forward on their skis.

The "Sweet Spot" is not in the same place on all skis, even when mounted
to manufacturer spec. And when a ski is mounted correctly, the "sweet
spot" is usually under the skier's toes, which is not where weight is
when standing in (flat-soled) street shoes on a flat surface - then
weight is carried more over the heels. So, particularly for the newbie
skier, a proper stance will seem very far forward relative to what
(s)he's used to; hence deliberately trying to move weight forward is a
useful and necessary effort.

I seldom see a skier who is too far forward; quite the opposite for
most, even for self-described accomplished skiers. I doubt very much if
Lisa, for example, is in danger of being "too far" forward. At this
point in her learning curve she should be thinking "get forward."

Note also that the "ride the sweet spot" works best for properly fitted
(i.e. length, flex, shape, fitted to skier size and skills) skis on
controlled surfaces - i.e. groomed. Off piste is much more dynamic, and
being excessively forward is invariably better than being in the
backseat, in tough conditions.

Question: In your opinion has PSIA's evolving instruction book been
influenced strongly by modern grooming? When I took my early ski lesson
(one lesson - I also cheated and follwed classes around when I was in my
early teens) there weren't any "groomed" pistes - snowplowing sloppy
snow was where a beginner started. How much of modern instruction do you
think is influenced by grooming? How much by equipment? How much is
guided by perceived modern expert technique?