forward-step move in skating

I'm coming to think that stepping _forward_ is critical to effective
skating -- especially for climbing up a hill. I had stopped doing it much,
because there's no real gain in the overall physics from just extending my
_foot_ 15 cm closer to my destination. But now I'm seeing some big gains
based on the special _biomechanics_ of the human body wearing skis:

(1) Stepping-forward enables me to land my ski closer in -- under my hip.
If I step sideways, I must land the ski further out -- so its tail is not
planted on top of the tail of the other ski. Landing the ski further out
means that is takes more effort and more time to get my hip over the ski.
(This is an odd biomechanical coincidence: Landing the ski further forward
makes space for its tail. It can be seen dramatically in the last four
seconds of the Carl Swenson skate video on JanneG's website.)

(2) If I land the ski closer in and further forward, I get much more range
of motion in the early push out with my hip abductor muscle. Using this
muscle more effectively can add power to the stroke cycle and/or take load
off the obvious big leg mucles. (This gain in range of motion is less at
higher speeds when the skis are angled more forward.)

(3) If I step more forward, I can increase the range-of-motion of my
toe-push. If I step sideways, there's a limit to high how I can lift my
heel. Using more toe-push (at just the right time) can add power to my
stroke cycle and/or take load off the other big muscles.

(4) Moving the mass of my leg forward puts my overall center of mass a
little closer to the plane of effective skate-push (the plane which passed
thru my boot, and is perpendicular to the length of the ski). I think there
is a rough principle that the closer my center of mass and my hip joint is
to that plane, the better biomechanical leverage for my skate-push. The
need to get more mass forward is especially important for climbing up a
hill, because the ski is angled more out to the side.

In all the videos I've checked, I'm seeing the elite racers making a
substantial forward step when climbing up a hill.

So unless I hear a good argument otherwise, I'm going start practicing the
forward step.

Ken

You can see the forward-step move VERY clearly in SkateClimbSlomo on
JanneG's website also. Since they're ALL doing it there's probably
not much controversy on his one. Note also that their skis are coming
close to crossing, and probably would cross if they weren't stepping
forward as much as they are.

-Jim

So unless I hear a good argument otherwise, I'm going start
practicing the
forward step.

They are stepping forward, but I'll bet they aren't THINKING about
stepping forward. Try too hard to step forward and you'll end up
pushing back with the other foot, that will lead to twisting, and
everything will fall apart. THINK about kicking sideways with good
forward lean and the stepping forward will happen naturally.

That's my argument.

Rob Bradlee


=====
Rob Bradlee
Java, C++, Perl, XML, OOAD, Linux, and Unix Training

I tried it on pavement just before dark today, skating with no poles both on
the flat and climbing up some hills up to 8% grade.

On the hill I could definitely feel that I was able to get a longer range of
early push out to the side and down and back, by first landing my skate
further in to the center and up and forward. (Seems so obvious when I
phrase it that way -- so why didn't I get this sooner?). On my rollerskis
on the flat I also could strongly feel the greater range-of-motion in my
final toe-push with my calf muscle.

I did several short time-trial measurements on the hill (no poles), and I
got consistently faster times with the forward-inside-step approach than the
step-more-to-the-side approach.

It felt like it made it easier to get my body weight more forward. I'm
coming to thing that's important at slower speeds like up a hill.

Ken

If they are not thinking about carrying the off leg forward -- and I bet
they do from time to time -- it's because practice has made it a habit
(check out Alsgaard & Zorzi climbing together in the Oly relay). For
the rest of us, it's got to be learned. The problem for beginners is
that no one ever tells them that's the way it's done, so they end up
trying to make it all happen by the power of push-off, glide and
poling. That doesn't work and they break down. Thus, that "step"
forward can be the beginning of skate wisdom. I'd be interested to know
if anyone has ever had an instructor or coach talk about carrying the
leg forward on hills (not just in open field skate). The only one I'm
aware of is Borowski in his skate secrets book, re the "Fats Domino
drill" (get the allusion?), and then again in his recent video.

Gene


Rob Bradlee wrote:

So unless I hear a good argument otherwise, I'm going start
practicing the
forward step.

They are stepping forward, but I'll bet they aren't THINKING about
stepping forward. Try too hard to step forward and you'll end up
pushing back with the other foot, that will lead to twisting, and
everything will fall apart. THINK about kicking sideways with good
forward lean and the stepping forward will happen naturally.

That's my argument.

Rob Bradlee

=====
Rob Bradlee
Java, C++, Perl, XML, OOAD, Linux, and Unix Training

Gene Goldenfeld wrote in message ...
I'd be interested to know
if anyone has ever had an
instructor or coach talk about carrying the
leg forward on hills (not just in open field skate).

My college coach told us to move the foot forward all the time; that
was in the 1980s. He also told us to always think about pushing
forward and to the side, never back. So we'd avoid getting a foot
stuck behind.

In the XC skating technique video produced by Torbjorn Karlsen I think
Karlsen uses the phrase "active forward step" in talking about V1.

JT

I can see how there's a danger in telling some people to consciously step
forward -- because they've haven't yet _felt_ the magic of pushing out to
the side thru the heel, and there's a danger they never will.

Rob Bradlee wrote
They are stepping forward, but I'll bet they aren't THINKING
about stepping forward . . . THINK about kicking sideways
with good forward lean and the stepping forward will happen naturally.

But when I compare my videos with Swenson and Elofsson and lots of other
pros, it's clear that their "unthinking" approach has them doing something
rather different than _my_ "unthinking" approach. Until a week ago I
thought like Rob is saying, that if I focus on good side-push, my
unconscious cerebellum will make the right amount of forward-step happen.

But that's not happening for me right now in my videos -- maybe I gave
myself an overdose of that push-out-to-side magic during the last year. So
now I'm a special problem case, and I need some special "conscious forward
step" therapy to get out of it.

What's funny is that I was clearly taught the forward-step and
step-up-the-hill moves in that great on-snow lesson I had last January, with
specific drills to practice them. But then I talked myself out of it,
because the obvious argument for it is fallacious in the physics, and my
analysis of the biomechanics wasn't deep enough -- and because I never
actually _measured_ using the two different approaches in my actual outdoor
skating.

I started my special therapy yesterday, and so far I like it.

Ken

"Ken Roberts" writes:

I can see how there's a danger in telling some people to consciously step
forward -- because they've haven't yet _felt_ the magic of pushing out to
the side thru the heel, and there's a danger they never will.

Rob Bradlee wrote
They are stepping forward, but I'll bet they aren't THINKING
about stepping forward . . . THINK about kicking sideways
with good forward lean and the stepping forward will happen naturally.

But when I compare my videos with Swenson and Elofsson and lots of other
pros, it's clear that their "unthinking" approach has them doing something
rather different than _my_ "unthinking" approach. Until a week ago I
thought like Rob is saying, that if I focus on good side-push, my
unconscious cerebellum will make the right amount of forward-step happen.

But that's not happening for me right now in my videos -- maybe I gave
myself an overdose of that push-out-to-side magic during the last year. So
now I'm a special problem case, and I need some special "conscious forward
step" therapy to get out of it.

What's funny is that I was clearly taught the forward-step and
step-up-the-hill moves in that great on-snow lesson I had last January, with
specific drills to practice them. But then I talked myself out of it,
because the obvious argument for it is fallacious in the physics, and my
analysis of the biomechanics wasn't deep enough -- and because I never
actually _measured_ using the two different approaches in my actual outdoor
skating.

I started my special therapy yesterday, and so far I like it.

Ken



Ken Roberts skied 10km in 28 minutes and some seconds last Sunday; I hope that
my lack of proficiency (I took 36 minutes and fell three times) can approach
his soon!

Seriously though, I think that keeping your focus simple: like is my glide
long and smooth? are my v's narrow enough considering the terrain? and are my
race times commensurate with my conditioning? constitutes all my concerns.

To me, the danger in trying to carbon copy the technique of the truly gifted is
that you don't have their body. I remember that 15 years ago many racing
cyclists trying to fit their bikes like Greg Lemond. The problem was that Greg
Lemond has long feet for his height. Thus, that saddle back setup just did not
work for many racers.

If you have a good glide and the corresponding excellent balance, be grateful!

David
--

gnupg fingerprint: 06AE 6472 EEE3 60B5 764D 110F F09F 74D8 B389 22F8

I'd be interested to know
if anyone has ever had an instructor or coach talk about carrying the
leg forward on hills (not just in open field skate).

Understanding that was a significant part of the coaching I got from Bryan
Fish on steep uphill v1 technique. It's still a matter of figuring out the
"just enough" step forward. Too little, you don't go anywhere. Too
little, you straddle between your feet unless you can match with that much
stronger of a push off. But feeling the correct body position regardless
of the incline or speed is the key.

Some context for that 10K time of mine -- it was on a nearly flat course, in
very fast conditions. I used only about six strokes of that V1 I've been
having problems with -- instead mostly V2, and most of the long straight
sections with no poles.

david emile lamy wrote
Ken Roberts skied 10km in 28 minutes and some seconds last Sunday

Also Todd let me draft him for nearly a lap -- before pulling away and
beating me by a minute. Ringmaster Brian beat me by a solid two minutes.
It was just a fun race for Lake Placid locals -- I might have been the only
one in the 10K race who didn't own a house there.

But the metro NYC / Hudson Valley region is a great place to live for
dryland training for a race on a fast course -- because we've got lots of
great pavement.

Ken