Diagonal Question

After the kick, it seems like the only way I can avoid the dreaded "ski
slap" is to purposely slow down the return of the kicking leg (on its way
back to the starting, or neutral position, or whatever you call it). This
seems dreadfully inefficient. I would guess that proper technique would be
to just let the leg return without any conscious effort - but I can't seem
to make that work. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks,

-JJ

Can't tell without video. Best to find an instructor in your area.
In the meantime, forget the kick and focus on forward movement, driving
the thigh forward and see if that helps. Start with shuffling (like on
a hardwood floor in socks) and expand from there. But truthfully, it
all starts with and depends on proper body position or stance, and that
we can't see w/o images.

rm

"JJ" wrote:

After the kick, it seems like the only way I can avoid the dreaded
"ski slap" is to purposely slow down the return of the kicking leg (on
its way back to the starting, or neutral position, or whatever you
call it). This seems dreadfully inefficient. I would guess that
proper technique would be to just let the leg return without any
conscious effort - but I can't seem to make that work. What am I
doing wrong?

Thanks,

-JJ

One possibility is when you're bring the leg forward you might not
have enough bend in the knee.
-Jim

Jim wrote:

One possibility is when you're bring the leg forward you might not
have enough bend in the knee.


Yes, one of several possibilities. It's likely there's a posture or
body position problem of some kind, but which one? It could just as
well be that JJ's too low, in the saddle so to speak, with too much
knee flex and thus not getting enough clearance to pendle the leg
through. Or, to list several more, he could be hinging at the waist,
his neck and back could be arching back, his arm/leg timing could be
off, he could be bouncing, he could lack a correct image of how/where
to land coming forward, or his ankles might not be flexing all the way
through the cycle - knees follow ankles, after all. Our ignorance of
what JJ is actually doing is why piecemeal advice without images leads
to bad results. rm

wrote in message
...
Jim wrote:

One possibility is when you're bring the leg forward you might not
have enough bend in the knee.


Yes, one of several possibilities. It's likely there's a posture or
body position problem of some kind, but which one? It could just as
well be that JJ's too low, in the saddle so to speak, with too much
knee flex and thus not getting enough clearance to pendle the leg
through. Or, to list several more, he could be hinging at the waist,
his neck and back could be arching back, his arm/leg timing could be
off, he could be bouncing, he could lack a correct image of how/where
to land coming forward, or his ankles might not be flexing all the way
through the cycle - knees follow ankles, after all. Our ignorance of
what JJ is actually doing is why piecemeal advice without images leads
to bad results. rm


After reading RM's first reply, I realized what an impossible question that
was. Apologies for that, and if you would, please let me narrow the
question to what I was really after. What I am curious about (specifically)
is whether or not the kicking leg is purposely held back or slowed from
returning, after the kick. I know, logic would dictate that the leg be
allowed to swing back to the neutral position freely. That is the issue I'm
struggling with.

Thanks again, guys.

-JJ

"JJ" wrote:

What I am curious about
(specifically) is whether or not the kicking leg is purposely held
back or slowed from returning, after the kick. I know, logic would
dictate that the leg be allowed to swing back to the neutral position
freely. That is the issue I'm struggling with.

Normally - grip being decent - attention should be focused on driving
the leg forward (not on returning it to a neutral position). Think
about it like running, the idea being to get up the hill quickly and
efficiently. Most coaching now adays focuses on driving the front of
the thigh (coin in the pocket) or in Stan Feldheim's case, the hip (but
not the foot). For background, there has been a discussion of decades
standing between paying attention to the kick motion (what goes on down
and back) vs. the leg's forward motion. I think it's fair to say that
it's been resolved for the latter, although we still occasionally see
articles in Master Skier such as, "Kick like a mule." Videos and
graphics of skiers can be deceiving about this, with a good skier's back
leg extended and seemingly up there forever. But if you look at a
video of yourself while consciously driving your legs up the hill,
you'll be surprised at how much backward leg extension naturally
occurs without awareness of it.

Again, tho, I'm wondering if your question isn't revealing of some more
fundamental misunderstanding. That's why I suggest finding a good
instructor, to check.

rm

In article ,
JJ wrote:

wrote in message
. ..
Jim wrote:


After reading RM's first reply, I realized what an impossible question that
was. Apologies for that, and if you would, please let me narrow the
question to what I was really after. What I am curious about (specifically)
is whether or not the kicking leg is purposely held back or slowed from
returning, after the kick. I know, logic would dictate that the leg be
allowed to swing back to the neutral position freely. That is the issue I'm
struggling with.


I was taught that the trailing leg should be brought forward with
emphasis. You want to feel a momentum transfer as the trailing
leg accellerates forward. We would practice this on a flat
surface with no poles and very minimal kick wax. The idea was to
concentrate on making forward progress by momentum transfer as
you brought the trailing leg forward rather than by pushing off
the kick leg. The exercise was to exaggerate the feeling so you
would establish some muscle memory when using everything.

Of course all that was 30+ years ago, but back then learning to
do that effectively took me from the back of the pack to the
front.

_ Booker C. Bense

Ski slap almost always results from an incomplete weight transfer to the
glide ski. The recovering ski comes down hard and early in order to retain
balance. If weight is transferred to the glide ski there is no need to
bring the free ski down before its time.

Scott

"JJ" wrote in message
...
After the kick, it seems like the only way I can avoid the dreaded "ski
slap" is to purposely slow down the return of the kicking leg (on its way
back to the starting, or neutral position, or whatever you call it). This
seems dreadfully inefficient. I would guess that proper technique would
be to just let the leg return without any conscious effort - but I can't
seem to make that work. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks,

-JJ

What I am curious about (specifically)
is whether or not the kicking leg is purposely held back or slowed from
returning, after the kick. I know, logic would dictate that the leg be
allowed to swing back to the neutral position freely. That is the issue I'm
struggling with.

somehow yes to your question JJ.
You should follow through on your kick and FEEL THE GLIDE on the front
foot. This will give you a feeling of slowing down the back foot and
somewhat let it hang there. But don't stop it back there and don't
think too much abot it hanging there. A common beginner mistake is to
return the foot too quickly and not complete the kick and glide.
Usually because balance is not so good or you're keen on going fast.
Read also what Scott Elliot writes. Work on balance and get full
weight on gliding foot. Feel the glide. In all these tips I assume
you're not in a short sprint or acceleration. Foot work is faster
then.
One tip: look for film of Odd Bjørn Hjelmeset when he goes classic
50k. Long steps, good glide, good balance and hey... he won the 50km
classic at Worlds Sapporo 2007.

Ski slap almost always results from an incomplete weight transfer to the
glide ski. The recovering ski comes down hard and early in order to retain
balance. If weight is transferred to the glide ski there is no need to
bring the free ski down before its time.

Telling people they lack weight transfer, just like telling them they
lack balance, begs the question of how. Good transfer stride after
stride is a result of other actions, not something one can consciously
create (at least not for long). Likewise, unless one is unusually
gifted or practiced in another balance-based sport, good balance is
primarily the result of developing good technique and practicing it a
lot. Specific balance-focused exercises can only supplement that.

rm

wrote:

What I am curious about (specifically)
is whether or not the kicking leg is purposely held back or slowed
from returning, after the kick. I know, logic would dictate that
the leg be allowed to swing back to the neutral position freely.
That is the issue I'm struggling with.

somehow yes to your question JJ.
You should follow through on your kick and FEEL THE GLIDE on the front
foot. This will give you a feeling of slowing down the back foot and
somewhat let it hang there. But don't stop it back there and don't
think too much abot it hanging there. A common beginner mistake is to
return the foot too quickly and not complete the kick and glide.
Usually because balance is not so good or you're keen on going fast.
Read also what Scott Elliot writes. Work on balance and get full
weight on gliding foot. Feel the glide. In all these tips I assume
you're not in a short sprint or acceleration. Foot work is faster
then.
One tip: look for film of Odd Bj_rn Hjelmeset when he goes classic
50k. Long steps, good glide, good balance and hey... he won the 50km
classic at Worlds Sapporo 2007.

Ski slap almost always results from an incomplete weight transfer to
the glide ski. The recovering ski comes down hard and early in
order to retain balance. If weight is transferred to the glide ski
there is no need to bring the free ski down before its time.