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skate ski home flex test question .. help!



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 25th 04, 04:04 AM
Chris Crawford
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default skate ski home flex test question .. help!

Hi all, and thanks for all the advice I've gleaned off this group
lately. After a 5 year hiatus (3 kids later) I'm getting back into
skiing and have been trying to learn as much as possible off the web.
Even though I live in Denver CO, there is really no one in town who
knows anything about performance nordic skiing....odd.

At any rate, I've been looking to add/replace with anew pair of skis.
The only nice skate skis I've owned are my Atomic 193 ARCs circa 1995
which have been skied on for about 3 hard seasons. I recently went in
to an REI and looked at some RS10s and the first thing I noticed was how
much stiffer they (the 190 stiffs which should be right for my weight)
were than my skis (I'm 170 lbs).

I went home and did a few searches to determine how to determine proper
flex for a skate ski in a general sort of way and found a few vague
recommendations such as one shouldn't be able to press the bases
together (I could) and that standing on your skis on a flat surface, you
should be able to just slide a piece of paper under the ski from the
heel to about 1 foot in front of the toe.

That sounded like a good data point to start with so I put my Atomics on
a hardwood floor and stood, each foot on a ski, and they completely,
beyond the shadow of a doubt, flattened out to the floor. So maybe I've
been skiing on some way too soft skis all this time? Maybe this
explains my high speed turning issues? maybe not?

At any rate it seemed a good time to start asking some questions. Can
anyone help me out with some rough tests for proper flex? Are these
Atomics way too soft? I know Atomic RS11's use some numbers like 2.4/70
(which I've been told is correct for my weight) which I think means (I
could be very wrong) that the ski should flatten out at 70/2=45 kg per
ski (or is it 70 kg on a single ski?) and that at some lower weight like
half of that, I can't remember what, the center should be 2.4 mm off the
floor?

Any help appreciated.

Regards
Chris

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  #2  
Old February 25th 04, 05:35 AM
Chris Cline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default skate ski home flex test question .. help!

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Hi Chris-
The paper test you've seen reference to (sliding paper under the center portion of the ski while you're standing on it) is for classic skis, not skating skis.
Classic skis have "double camber" aka a wax pocket or kick zone, and the function of the paper test is to make sure that the (classic) skis you're evaluating have enough of one for your weight to allow you to glide without the kick wax being pressured into the snow (and therefore gripping) by your weight.

Skate skis are "single-cambered", and when you stand on them (or press them together if your hands are strong enough), they will completely flatten out once a particular amount of force is exerted on them (either by your hands or a pressure testing gauge if you are testing them off a rack, or by your bod if you are skiing on them). Actually, on snow (while you're skating), as you push off on a skate ski, it may actually reverse-camber a bit (as I understand it-- the ski gurus may need to correct me here). How much reverse camber will depend on the stiffness of the ski, your technique (how powerfully you push off), and what you're pushing off against (powder or hard icy tracks). In fact, picking a skate ski flex is actually the art of balancing all of those factors to find a ski that will be the most useful to you for the conditions you are most likely to ski in (unless you are able to have a quiver of skis with different flex characteristics for different snow and/or course
conditions).

Some of the folks on this newsgroup can and will probably tell you what they think about whether or not a particular pair of newer Atomics (with flex numbers) are the right ski for you. For your old Atomics, two things: 1) you can take them into a shop (a good shop, that is), and have them flex tested, which is essentially squeezing them together with a pressure gauge. 2) How do they ski? Is there a particular type of condition(s) in which they seem fast? Conditions when they are not fast? Let that be your guide. I have a pair of Atomics of that vintage, and I've finally decided that they are great new snow skis-- somewhat soft, especially in the tip. On the other hand, my pair of Atomic Betas (about 2001 vintage) are *awful* in new/soft snow, no matter how I grind them or what I wax them with. In fact, with an identical wax job as the older Atomics, they may actually glide further in a glide test, but they ski _terrible_ in those conditions. On the other hand, they!
are
rocket-fast on harder tracks. My solution? Quit trying to use them in soft snow and save 'em for spring!

Hope this helps clear things up a bit-
the other Chris (actually the 3rd Chris-- there's Chris Esposito, too).
SLC, UT

Chris Crawford wrote:
Hi all, and thanks for all the advice I've gleaned off this group
lately. After a 5 year hiatus (3 kids later) I'm getting back into
skiing and have been trying to learn as much as possible off the web.
Even though I live in Denver CO, there is really no one in town who
knows anything about performance nordic skiing....odd.

At any rate, I've been looking to add/replace with anew pair of skis.
The only nice skate skis I've owned are my Atomic 193 ARCs circa 1995
which have been skied on for about 3 hard seasons. I recently went in
to an REI and looked at some RS10s and the first thing I noticed was how
much stiffer they (the 190 stiffs which should be right for my weight)
were than my skis (I'm 170 lbs).

I went home and did a few searches to determine how to determine proper
flex for a skate ski in a general sort of way and found a few vague
recommendations such as one shouldn't be able to press the bases
together (I could) and that standing on your skis on a flat surface, you
should be able to just slide a piece of paper under the ski from the
heel to about 1 foot in front of the toe.

That sounded like a good data point to start with so I put my Atomics on
a hardwood floor and stood, each foot on a ski, and they completely,
beyond the shadow of a doubt, flattened out to the floor. So maybe I've
been skiing on some way too soft skis all this time? Maybe this
explains my high speed turning issues? maybe not?

At any rate it seemed a good time to start asking some questions. Can
anyone help me out with some rough tests for proper flex? Are these
Atomics way too soft? I know Atomic RS11's use some numbers like 2.4/70
(which I've been told is correct for my weight) which I think means (I
could be very wrong) that the ski should flatten out at 70/2=45 kg per
ski (or is it 70 kg on a single ski?) and that at some lower weight like
half of that, I can't remember what, the center should be 2.4 mm off the
floor?

Any help appreciated.

Regards
Chris






---------------------------------
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DIVHi Chris-/DIV
DIVThe paper test you've seen reference to (sliding paper under the center portion of the ski while you're standing on it) is for classic skis, not skating skis./DIV
DIV Classic skis have "double camber" aka a wax pocket or kick zone, and the function of the paper test is to make sure that the (classic) skis you're evaluating have enough of one for your weight to allow you to glide without the kick wax being pressured into the snow (and therefore gripping) by your weight./DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVSkate skis are "single-cambered", and when you stand on them (or press them together if your hands are strong enough), they will completely flatten out once a particular amount of force is exerted on them (either by your hands or a pressure testing gauge if you are testing them off a rack, or by your bod if you are skiing on them). Actually, on snow (while you're skating), as you push off on a skate ski, it may actually reverse-camber a bit (as I understand it-- the ski gurus may need to correct me here).  How much reverse camber will depend on the stiffness of the ski, your technique (how powerfully you push off), and what you're pushing off against (powder or hard icy tracks).  In fact, picking a skate ski flex is actually the art of balancing all of those factors to find a ski that will be the most useful to you for the conditions you are most likely to ski in (unless you are able to have a quiver of skis with different flex characteristics for different sn!
ow and/or
course conditions)./DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVSome of the folks on this newsgroup can and will probably tell you what they think about whether or not a particular pair of newer Atomics (with flex numbers) are the right ski for you.  For your old Atomics, two things: 1) you can take them into a shop (a good shop, that is), and have them flex tested, which is essentially squeezing them together with a pressure gauge.  2) How do they ski?  Is there a particular type of condition(s) in which they seem fast?  Conditions when they are not fast?  Let that be your guide.  I have a pair of Atomics of that vintage, and I've finally decided that they are great new snow skis-- somewhat soft, especially in the tip.  On the other hand, my pair of Atomic Betas (about 2001 vintage) are *awful* in new/soft snow, no matter how I grind them or what I wax them with.  In fact, with an identical wax job as the older Atomics, they may actually glide further in a glide test, but they ski _terri!
ble_ in
those conditions.  On the other hand, they are rocket-fast on harder tracks.  My solution?  Quit trying to use them in soft snow and save 'em for spring!/DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVHope this helps clear things up a bit-/DIV
DIVthe other Chris (actually the 3rd Chris-- there's Chris Esposito, too)./DIV
DIVSLC, UTBRBRBIChris Crawford >/I/B wrote:/DIV
BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"Hi all, and thanks for all the advice I've gleaned off this group BRlately. After a 5 year hiatus (3 kids later) I'm getting back into BRskiing and have been trying to learn as much as possible off the web. BREven though I live in Denver CO, there is really no one in town who BRknows anything about performance nordic skiing....odd.BRBRAt any rate, I've been looking to add/replace with anew pair of skis. BRThe only nice skate skis I've owned are my Atomic 193 ARCs circa 1995 BRwhich have been skied on for about 3 hard seasons. I recently went in BRto an REI and looked at some RS10s and the first thing I noticed was how BRmuch stiffer they (the 190 stiffs which should be right for my weight) BRwere than my skis (I'm 170 lbs).BRBRI went home and did a few searches to determine how to determine proper BRflex for a skate ski in a general sort of way and!
found a
few vague BRrecommendations such as one shouldn't be able to press the bases BRtogether (I could) and that standing on your skis on a flat surface, you BRshould be able to just slide a piece of paper under the ski from the BRheel to about 1 foot in front of the toe.BRBRThat sounded like a good data point to start with so I put my Atomics on BRa hardwood floor and stood, each foot on a ski, and they completely, BRbeyond the shadow of a doubt, flattened out to the floor. So maybe I've BRbeen skiing on some way too soft skis all this time? Maybe this BRexplains my high speed turning issues? maybe not?BRBRAt any rate it seemed a good time to start asking some questions. Can BRanyone help me out with some rough tests for proper flex? Are these BRAtomics way too soft? I know Atomic RS11's use some numbers like 2.4/70 BR(which I've been told is correct for my weight) which I think means (I BRcould be very wrong) that the ski should flatten out at 70!
/2=45 kg
per BRski (or is it 70 kg on a single ski?) and that at some lower weight like BRhalf of that, I can't remember what, the center should be 2.4 mm off the BRfloor?BRBRAny help appreciated.BRBRRegardsBRChrisBRBRBRB RBR/BLOCKQUOTEphr SIZE=1
Do you Yahoo!?br
a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mailtag_us/*http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools?tool=1"Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard/a - Read only the mail you want./a
--0-735399529-1077686832=:63801--




  #3  
Old February 25th 04, 04:17 PM
Chris Crawford
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default skate ski home flex test question .. help!


Chris 1.0,

Thanks for all the help.

Regards
Chris 3.0

  #4  
Old February 25th 04, 07:14 PM
Chris Cline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default skate ski home flex test question .. help!

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Thanks! ;- )
C2 V1.0
(Chris Cline)

PS- I like the new name!

Chris Crawford wrote:

Chris 1.0,

Thanks for all the help.

Regards
Chris 3.0






---------------------------------
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DIVThanks! ;- )/DIV
DIVC2 V1.0/DIV
DIV(Chris Cline)/DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVPS- I like the new name!BRBRBIChris Crawford >/I/B wrote:/DIV
BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"BRChris 1.0,BRBRThanks for all the help.BRBRRegardsBRChris 3.0BRBRBRBRBR/BLOCKQUOTEphr SIZE=1
Do you Yahoo!?br
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  #5  
Old February 25th 04, 07:46 PM
p.bowen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default skate ski home flex test question .. help!

you must do a paper test to properly select skating skis. if you can
compress a skate ski to the point that it closes under foot, it is too
soft for you. that ski will lose stability, especially in harder
conditions. paper testing is also valuable to analyze the glide zones
and make sure that the ski has the right pressure distribution and
that the transitions from the pocket to the glide zones are smooth.

that said, paper testing at home is an absolute no no. floors are not
flat, and accurate results are almost surely impossible to acheive.

as far as atomics go, the larger number (eg 70) should be ~90% of your
body weight in kilos. so a 70 is for 170+ lb person. there's a lot
more to it than that, but it's a good place to start. btw, 70 is not
a kg measure of the closing weight of that ski, it would take
substantially more to flatten it.

anyway. to add to the grist mill,

-phil at gearwest
www.gearwest.com
877 473 4327
  #6  
Old February 25th 04, 08:30 PM
Chris Cline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default skate ski home flex test question .. help!

--0-722344745-1077740770=:18042
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hi Phil-
I guess I'm confused (wouldn't be the first time...). I didn't think that paper tests were relevant for skating skis. Goes to show what I know. I apologize to the original poster (Chris3?) for answering so authoritatively about something that I can stand some learning on myself.
thanks for the (better) information--
Chris

"p.bowen" wrote:
you must do a paper test to properly select skating skis. if you can
compress a skate ski to the point that it closes under foot, it is too
soft for you. that ski will lose stability, especially in harder
conditions. paper testing is also valuable to analyze the glide zones
and make sure that the ski has the right pressure distribution and
that the transitions from the pocket to the glide zones are smooth.

that said, paper testing at home is an absolute no no. floors are not
flat, and accurate results are almost surely impossible to acheive.

as far as atomics go, the larger number (eg 70) should be ~90% of your
body weight in kilos. so a 70 is for 170+ lb person. there's a lot
more to it than that, but it's a good place to start. btw, 70 is not
a kg measure of the closing weight of that ski, it would take
substantially more to flatten it.

anyway. to add to the grist mill,

-phil at gearwest
www.gearwest.com
877 473 4327





---------------------------------
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--0-722344745-1077740770=:18042
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DIVHi Phil-/DIV
DIVI guess I'm confused (wouldn't be the first time...).  I didn't think that paper tests were relevant for skating skis.  Goes to show what I know.  I apologize to the original poster (Chris3?) for answering so authoritatively about something that I can stand some learning on myself./DIV
DIVthanks for the (better) information--/DIV
DIVChrisBRBRBI"p.bowen" >/I/B wrote:/DIV
BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"you must do a paper test to properly select skating skis. if you canBRcompress a skate ski to the point that it closes under foot, it is tooBRsoft for you. that ski will lose stability, especially in harderBRconditions. paper testing is also valuable to analyze the glide zonesBRand make sure that the ski has the right pressure distribution andBRthat the transitions from the pocket to the glide zones are smooth.BRBRthat said, paper testing at home is an absolute no no. floors are notBRflat, and accurate results are almost surely impossible to acheive.BRBRas far as atomics go, the larger number (eg 70) should be ~90% of yourBRbody weight in kilos. so a 70 is for 170+ lb person. there's a lotBRmore to it than that, but it's a good place to start. btw, 70 is notBRa kg measure of the closing weight of that ski, it would takeBRsubstantially more to flatt!
en
it.BRBRanyway. to add to the grist mill,BRBR-phil at gearwestBRwww.gearwest.comBR877 473 4327BRBRBRBR/BLOCKQUOTEphr SIZE=1
Do you Yahoo!?br
a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mailtag_us/*http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools?tool=1"Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard/a - Read only the mail you want./a
--0-722344745-1077740770=:18042--




  #7  
Old February 26th 04, 05:00 AM
Gene Goldenfeld
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default skate ski home flex test question .. help!

Well, I've been told by by shops that normal flex tests don't really
work with Atomic skates because of its pressure distribution. I'm not
sure it that's a flex tester or the board, too. I have a pair of
original Beta race skates (the red ones) which everyone has found to be
much softer than the label #s suggest, but have been told that for
accurate measurement they would have to be sent back to Rick Halling at
Atomic (he picked them for me).

Gene

Chris Cline wrote:

--0-722344745-1077740770=:18042
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hi Phil-
I guess I'm confused (wouldn't be the first time...). I didn't think that paper tests were relevant for skating skis. Goes to show what I know. I apologize to the original poster (Chris3?) for answering so authoritatively about something that I can stand some learning on myself.
thanks for the (better) information--
Chris

"p.bowen" wrote:
you must do a paper test to properly select skating skis. if you can
compress a skate ski to the point that it closes under foot, it is too
soft for you. that ski will lose stability, especially in harder
conditions. paper testing is also valuable to analyze the glide zones
and make sure that the ski has the right pressure distribution and
that the transitions from the pocket to the glide zones are smooth.

that said, paper testing at home is an absolute no no. floors are not
flat, and accurate results are almost surely impossible to acheive.

as far as atomics go, the larger number (eg 70) should be ~90% of your
body weight in kilos. so a 70 is for 170+ lb person. there's a lot
more to it than that, but it's a good place to start. btw, 70 is not
a kg measure of the closing weight of that ski, it would take
substantially more to flatten it.

anyway. to add to the grist mill,

-phil at gearwest
www.gearwest.com
877 473 4327

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
--0-722344745-1077740770=:18042
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

DIVHi Phil-/DIV
DIVI guess I'm confused (wouldn't be the first time...).  I didn't think that paper tests were relevant for skating skis.  Goes to show what I know.  I apologize to the original poster (Chris3?) for answering so authoritatively about something that I can stand some learning on myself./DIV
DIVthanks for the (better) information--/DIV
DIVChrisBRBRBI"p.bowen" >/I/B wrote:/DIV
BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"you must do a paper test to properly select skating skis. if you canBRcompress a skate ski to the point that it closes under foot, it is tooBRsoft for you. that ski will lose stability, especially in harderBRconditions. paper testing is also valuable to analyze the glide zonesBRand make sure that the ski has the right pressure distribution andBRthat the transitions from the pocket to the glide zones are smooth.BRBRthat said, paper testing at home is an absolute no no. floors are notBRflat, and accurate results are almost surely impossible to acheive.BRBRas far as atomics go, the larger number (eg 70) should be ~90% of yourBRbody weight in kilos. so a 70 is for 170+ lb person. there's a lotBRmore to it than that, but it's a good place to start. btw, 70 is notBRa kg measure of the closing weight of that ski, it would takeBRsubstantially more to flatt!
en
it.BRBRanyway. to add to the grist mill,BRBR-phil at gearwestBRwww.gearwest.comBR877 473 4327BRBRBRBR/BLOCKQUOTEphr SIZE=1
Do you Yahoo!?br
a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mailtag_us/*http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools?tool=1"Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard/a - Read only the mail you want./a
--0-722344745-1077740770=:18042--

 




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