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  #101  
Old January 29th 05, 10:34 PM
lal_truckee
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Baka Dasai wrote:
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 21:54:38 -0800, lal_truckee said (and I quote):

Baka Dasai wrote:


Nobody carved a turn on those, not even Stenmark.


You need to get out more ... you missed a good 80 years of skiing...



What? Did I miss some era where skis had carvable sidecuts?

I note you didn't quote my comment about how much you'd have to bend a
60 metre radius ski to carve a 10 metre radius turn.


Figure it out yourself - it's not that difficult. I'll give you a hint -
sidecut radius and turn radius are different - think ski angle to the snow.

And yes, carving has been going on for many decades - as one part of the
complete toolbox required for proficient skiing.

When you've figured it out, come back and maybe we'll talk some more -
until then ...
Ads
  #102  
Old January 30th 05, 01:06 AM
CParker
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"Mary Malmros" wrote in message
...
lal_truckee wrote:

Carving is a tool. Useful, but one cog in the wheel of skiing; there's


Cog in the _wheel_??? Since when do wheels have cogs?

Five points off for mixed metaphor, lal.

--
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield, other days you're the bug.

Well, there are the cog wheels on a cog railroad.

C.


  #103  
Old January 30th 05, 02:56 AM
VtSkier
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Baka Dasai wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:34:47 -0800, lal_truckee said (and I quote):

Baka Dasai wrote:


I note you didn't quote my comment about how much you'd have to bend a
60 metre radius ski to carve a 10 metre radius turn.


Figure it out yourself - it's not that difficult. I'll give you a hint -
sidecut radius and turn radius are different - think ski angle to the snow.



Um, lal, you don't seem to be reading me. Of course sidecut radius and
turn radius are different - that's why I'm talking about 60 metre skis
carving 10 metre circles.

For your benefit, why don't you check out this carving calculator:

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze...lculator1.html

It shows what it takes to carve a 60-metre sidecut ski into a 10-metre
turn:

Speed: 60 km/h
Inclination: 70 degrees
Angulation: 10 degrees

So if you could drag your hip along the snow throughout a 60 kmh turn,
then I guess you could carve a "straight" ski.


When you've figured it out, come back and maybe we'll talk some more -
until then ...



Oh my.


holds up hand I've got a couple of question here.

What exactly are inclination and angulation as used here?

What makes you think I won't be traveling at 60 km/h?

How do these calculators account for the amount the ski
will bend? Based on the weight of the skier? Flexibility
of the skis?

These calculators are for snowboards. Does a ski behave
exactly the same as a snowboard? Answer is yes, but it
would be my opinion that a ski would be easier to flex
(usually) than a snowboard. Also, a longer ski would
flex more than a short snowboard. We ARE talking longer
skis here, in that "straight" skis were skied in lengths
exceeding what is popular today. LAL, for instance still
skis on Volkl P30's in, if I remember, 205cm. My
recollection was that while he could carve nice big arcs,
he preferred going down hill at mach 4.

In my 20's, 40 years ago, I remember having GREAT days
when I would ski down the mountain feeling great, laying
down great big GS turns. Almost no snow was being
thrown up in these turns. The main limiting factor, IMO
to carving in those days was not the ski, it was the boot.

I remember feeling the boot bend sideways. That is, when
I pressed really hard on my edges, the ski did not stay
perpendicular with my shin bone. This was due to the
fact that the boots were bending side to side and not
just fore and aft as they should have been. In other
words the angle of the ski to the snow was not the same
as your angulation (as I understand the word).

As an interesting aside. I have a pair of circa 1965
skis in good working order. I take them out once in a
while. The particular skis I have are easy turning,
gentle, yet competent Head 360's. Today with modern
boots I can hardly get them to turn at all but back then
I thought they were the bomb. My technique has evolved
with the equipment so that it no longer works well with
old style equipment.

At any rate, we certainly could carve with our skis
back then. I think I woke up to the fact that I could
make skis carve when I got my first stiff boots. First
early Langes (first year they came with buckles) and
the really radical Rosemounts which were really neat
when you could get the pads to work right.

VtSkier
  #105  
Old January 30th 05, 04:19 AM
Mary Malmros
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VtSkier wrote:
[snip]
What makes you think I won't be traveling at 60 km/h?


You might be...but you won't be dragging your hip on the snow while
you're doing it.


--
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield, other days you're the bug.

  #106  
Old January 30th 05, 04:44 AM
David Harris
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Mary Malmros wrote in
:

David Harris wrote:

Mary Malmros wrote in
news:zPadnb6fFbW4AWbcRVn- :


David Harris wrote:


Pure carving, w/o skidding is a racing technique.

How come Bode Miller skids? Deliberately?

IOW, in the real world, it ain't all as cut and dried as that.



I agree with that - I should have been more clear.

My point was that pure carving carries the most speed through a
turn,which makes it important and suitable to racing, and less
essential to free skiing.


So how come Bode Miller often skids deliberately? Because he doesn't
want to use a tool that is important and suitable to racing? Because
he's so much better than everyone else and doesn't want to make them
look bad?


He does this when he has to, I assume. As do all racers. Why else would
he do it?

Racers also need to lose speed on occasion to keep to an achievable
line. Slalomers also need to snap their skis around faster than a
pure carve allows, and will do that as necessary.


It's much more than "on occasion", given current course sets and
conditions. Go browse the SR archives; there's a link in there to an
off-the-cuff (but still excellent) explanation by Bode.

What are the SR archives? Actually, there's probably no need, I think we
are in agreement.

If you disagree with the amount, i.e. "on occasion", then no big deal.
It was just a phrase - not intended as an absolte measure. If it's
something else, please explain.

I'll try again - the point I wanted to make is that a lot of people seem
to be obsessing over two-ski carving as the ultimate goal in skiing. I
thing there a number of other ways to enjoy a day on the slopes, and that
pure carving is of primary importance to racers, who are measured. If I
skid a bit on the way down, I'm losing time, but no one is measuring
that, so I'm not all that concerned - which I think is the same for the
majority of recreational (i.e. non-racing) skiers.

Thanks,

dh

  #107  
Old January 30th 05, 03:18 PM
Steve FZ1
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From the write-up, it's pretty clear that ski / snowboard flex isn't
considered. Although he mentions the concept a few times, it never enters
into his equations. Hence, these calculations are really good for the
Binford Steel I-beam ski construction.

However, when a ski is properly loaded, the flex is VERY significant, when
compared to the unloaded sidecut. When on edge, the weight shifts from the
center of the ski to the tip and tail, which forces the ski to bend into a
much tighter radius edge. A ski with only a cm, lets say, of side cut now
flexes several inches toward the center of the circle identified by the
radius. The result? A greatly reduced turn radius due to the "new" ski
radius.

I have a set of old Rossi 4XKs that had almost no visible sidecut. I don't
know what the radius of the edge was.... but it wasn't much. However, when
you put them on edge and they loaded up and flexed, they turned like demons,
enought that initiating the next turn just meant "relax" and fall down the
hill.... they'll catch up quickly. The new skis with the much more
pronounced sidecuts (I now ski K2 Axis XPs) essentially make this transition
much easier, but the concept is the same.

- Steve

"Baka Dasai" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:56:48 -0500, VtSkier said (and I quote):
Baka Dasai wrote:
For your benefit, why don't you check out this carving calculator:

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze...lculator1.html

It shows what it takes to carve a 60-metre sidecut ski into a 10-metre
turn:

Speed: 60 km/h
Inclination: 70 degrees
Angulation: 10 degrees

So if you could drag your hip along the snow throughout a 60 kmh turn,
then I guess you could carve a "straight" ski.


What exactly are inclination and angulation as used here?


Inclination is the angle from your centre of gravity (COG) to your
skis/board. Zero degrees is standing perfectly upright, 90 degrees is
lying down on the snow.

Angulation is the angle you bend at the hips, knees and ankles.
Typically you want your upper body to be more upright than your lower
body. This brings your COG closer to your edges and improves your
balance.

More info is at at:

http://www.bomberonline.com/articles/physics.cfm

That article is based on Skiing Mechanics, by John Howe:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg.../-/0935240020/

What makes you think I won't be traveling at 60 km/h?


Nothing. It's fast, but not ridiculously so. But can you imagine a
10-metre radius turn at that speed? With your COG at 70 degrees?

How do these calculators account for the amount the ski
will bend? Based on the weight of the skier? Flexibility
of the skis?


That's a good point. An extremely stiff ski would require more speed to
bend it. I understand the physics only so far and I don't know how the
model accounts for stiffness. And skis are a little more complicated
because there are two of them. The skier can put all their weight on
their outside foot, thus putting double the force onto the ski and
bending it more. Or they can balance their weight across both feet, and
bend their skis less.

These calculators are for snowboards. Does a ski behave
exactly the same as a snowboard? Answer is yes, but it
would be my opinion that a ski would be easier to flex
(usually) than a snowboard.


I think it's hard to say for sure. Snowboards range from the very soft
to the very stiff.

Also, a longer ski would
flex more than a short snowboard.


Longer skis are made stiffer to compensate. They also usually have
bigger sidecut radius's.

In my 20's, 40 years ago, I remember having GREAT days
when I would ski down the mountain feeling great, laying
down great big GS turns. Almost no snow was being
thrown up in these turns.


Snow gets thrown up in a carve because the snow that was in the trench
has to go somewhere. See:

http://www.extremecarving.com/photos/03html/j01_03.html

for an example. And if you doubt that guy is carving, check the movie:

http://www.okao.com/films/2004/wmv/lifted.wmv (Windows Media)
http://www.okao.com/films/2004/mov/lifted.mov (Quicktime)

At any rate, we certainly could carve with our skis
back then.


Not for the whole turn. I can't imagine it being possible to carve the
downhill edges on skis with such a large sidecut.
--
What was I thinking?



  #108  
Old January 30th 05, 03:33 PM
pigo
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"Steve FZ1" wrote in message
...
From the write-up, it's pretty clear that ski / snowboard flex
isn't considered. Although he mentions the concept a few times, it
never enters into his equations. Hence, these calculations are
really good for the Binford Steel I-beam ski construction.

However, when a ski is properly loaded, the flex is VERY
significant, when compared to the unloaded sidecut. When on edge,
the weight shifts from the center of the ski to the tip and tail,
which forces the ski to bend into a much tighter radius edge. A
ski with only a cm, lets say, of side cut now flexes several inches
toward the center of the circle identified by the radius. The
result? A greatly reduced turn radius due to the "new" ski radius.

I have a set of old Rossi 4XKs that had almost no visible sidecut.
I don't know what the radius of the edge was.... but it wasn't
much. However, when you put them on edge and they loaded up and
flexed, they turned like demons, enought that initiating the next
turn just meant "relax" and fall down the hill.... they'll catch up
quickly. The new skis with the much more pronounced sidecuts (I
now ski K2 Axis XPs) essentially make this transition much easier,
but the concept is the same.

- Steve


And on high speed SG turns I used the whole ski so the bend was
overall and easy to understand. Reading your post made me consider
the slower, slalom and powder turns. It starts at the tip, bending
the front of the ski. Works to the middle and finally off of the
tail. I wonder what the radius is of the front 1/3 of the ski when
the turn is initiated?

pigo


  #109  
Old January 31st 05, 03:51 PM
Walt
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Baka Dasai wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 15:35:10 +1100, ant said (and I quote):


What you are saying applies to hard booters, but I'd dispute your claim
regarding softers.


It may be a regional thing. I'm in Japan - things can be different here.


Ok. Fair enough.

My experience is limited to North America. If you spent any time here
you would see that the vast majority of snowboarders scrape and skid.
Your would also encounter large swaths of scraped off boilerplate,
caused primarily by the heel-scraping snowboarders mentioned above.

Japan may well be different.


--
//-Walt
//
// There is no Völkl Conspiracy
  #110  
Old January 31st 05, 10:53 PM
VtSkier
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Baka Dasai wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:51:50 -0500, Walt said (and I quote):

Baka Dasai wrote:

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 15:35:10 +1100, ant said (and I quote):


What you are saying applies to hard booters, but I'd dispute your claim
regarding softers.

It may be a regional thing. I'm in Japan - things can be different here.


Ok. Fair enough.

My experience is limited to North America. If you spent any time here
you would see that the vast majority of snowboarders scrape and skid.



Oh, it's much the same here in Japan. What you're saying is not
inconsistent with my earlier claim about the relative proportions of
carving snowboarders and carving skiers.


Your would also encounter large swaths of scraped off boilerplate,
caused primarily by the heel-scraping snowboarders mentioned above.



Large swathes of scraped-off boilerplate existed prior to snowboarding,
for the same reasons it exists now.


In this part of the world (Northeast USA) as you say, large
swathes of scraped-off boilerplate existed prior to
snowboarding. This is a true statement as far as it goes.

What you don't say is where the scraped-off boilerplate
existed in those halcyon days.

And I've said this before.

The blue trails may well have been scraped off by snowplowing
skiers, HOWEVER:

If a skier got caught on a trail that was above his or her
ability to ski because of steepness and/or bumps, he or she
would be hesitant to do it again. Most skiers of that
lack of ability haven't yet been taught proper sideslipping
(chicken plow) to get down a tough area. Snowplow is way
too exhausting a method of slowing down for neophyte skiers
so that when they do get to the bottom, they will generally
not go back for a second dose.

Snowboarding is different in that heel-side scraping is not
particularly tiring and so the boarder will go back and do
the tough trail again and again, scraping on their heel-
sides until nothing is left on the trail. Especially on the
downhill sides of bumps.

Chicken plow on skis requires more skill and concentration
than heel-side scraping by a snowboarder.

The argument is whether or not snowboarders affect the snow
quality on a ski hill better/worse or same/differently than
skiers.

The argument has been made that hard-boot (I loved the picture
of the franken-boot in the bomber website photos) carving
board riders do not affect the snow any differently than do
skiers of similar skill. This is an absolutely true statement.

I will also go so far as to say that a soft-boot rider who has
attained a level of skill adequate to the trail he/she had
decided to ride will also not affect the snow quality any or
much differently than a skier of equal skill.

What I will say is that there are hundreds or even thousands
of poorly skilled snowboard riders who are heel-side scraping
down upper level trails and slopes and making a mess of the
hill. All we ask is that these riders please learn the use of
their tool before tackling upper level pistes.

I would also ask that (probably these same) riders learn a
little etiquette on the hill by not stopping and sitting where
they are obstructing passage on a trail. These same "sitters"
are not only endangering other people on the hill, but they
are endangering themselves by exposing themselves to being
hit by other snow sliders, especially where they stop in a
spot that can't be seen very well from above.

VtSkier
 




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