Training polarization (Stephen Seiler)

Thanks for following up.

Does the study say what their weekly training load was?

On Wed, 17 Dec 2014 15:54:30 -0800 (PST)
Jon wrote:

Thanks for following up.

Does the study say what their weekly training load was?

I sent you a copy yesterday at the address you show. Is that not valid?

Gene

Thanks Gene--very kind of you.
(I use my top-secret, anti-spam address here, which I don't check that much.)

Gene,

Thanks for posting this. I found it quite interesting. My performance has suffered in the past couple of years, and I think I've fallen into the black hole, particularly when I look at results of older guys who are really kicking my arse.

I wonder if a Birkie pin will help my work career. I'd still like to do that race.

Jay

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 06:16:39 -0700 (PDT)
wrote:

Gene,

Thanks for posting this. I found it quite interesting. My performance
has suffered in the past couple of years, and I think I've fallen
into the black hole, particularly when I look at results of older
guys who are really kicking my arse.

I wonder if a Birkie pin will help my work career. I'd still like to
do that race.

Hi Jay,
During my annual perusal of Birkie results, I saw you were still racing
the Birkie and up there towards the top. What would a Birkie be
without you...

While the basic message of the research is not new to many x-c skiers
who pay attention to this sort of training info, there's still a lot of
resistance and outright denial to it, especially in the States. No
pain, no gain has a lot of adherents (one well known one wouldn't even
look at the video). What caught my attention above all in Seilor's talk
was that the bulk of high intensity training is being done at L4, not
L3, contrary to most of what I've heard over the years.

Gene

wrote:
On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 06:16:39 -0700 (PDT)
wrote:

Gene,

Thanks for posting this. I found it quite interesting. My performance
has suffered in the past couple of years, and I think I've fallen
into the black hole, particularly when I look at results of older
guys who are really kicking my arse.

I wonder if a Birkie pin will help my work career. I'd still like to
do that race.

Hi Jay,
During my annual perusal of Birkie results, I saw you were still racing
the Birkie and up there towards the top. What would a Birkie be
without you...

While the basic message of the research is not new to many x-c skiers
who pay attention to this sort of training info, there's still a lot of
resistance and outright denial to it, especially in the States. No
pain, no gain has a lot of adherents (one well known one wouldn't even
look at the video). What caught my attention above all in Seilor's talk
was that the bulk of high intensity training is being done at L4, not
L3, contrary to most of what I've heard over the years.

L3?

Can you even call it high intensity at L3?

Personally I'm still running ~75 competitions/year (orienteering), they
constitute at least 90% of my high intensity training in season, and a
large part (i.e. once a week or a little less) even in winter.

At least for me I tend to run a lot of competitions (they normally last
around 45 minutes) with an average heart rate in the 90-92% of max
range, this is supposedly just on the border between L4 and L5.

(170+ with a 185 max measured during a max O2 test.)

When I'm out of shape I can't average more than 155 or so.

BTW, I remember meeting Jay W when we visited Jay T for the Masters
World Orienteering Champs in Minnesota around 1995, nice that he's still
doing well!

Terje

--
- Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

Per the Norwegian Olympic Cmte Top Performance Group manual for
endurance athletes from ~2005, L3 is considered around lactate
threshhold (USST guide also).

L3 - 80-87% VO2max, 82-87% max HR, lactate 2.5-4.0 mmol, 50-90 mins tot.
L4 - 87-94% VO2max, 87-92% max HR, lactate 4.0-6.0 mmol, 30-50 mins
L5 - 94-100% VO2mx, 92-97% max HR, lactate, 6.0-10 mmol, 15-30 mins

Gene


On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 21:42:34 +0200
Terje Mathisen wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 06:16:39 -0700 (PDT)
wrote:

Gene,

Thanks for posting this. I found it quite interesting. My
performance has suffered in the past couple of years, and I think
I've fallen into the black hole, particularly when I look at
results of older guys who are really kicking my arse.

I wonder if a Birkie pin will help my work career. I'd still like
to do that race.

Hi Jay,
During my annual perusal of Birkie results, I saw you were still
racing the Birkie and up there towards the top. What would a
Birkie be without you...

While the basic message of the research is not new to many x-c
skiers who pay attention to this sort of training info, there's
still a lot of resistance and outright denial to it, especially in
the States. No pain, no gain has a lot of adherents (one well known
one wouldn't even look at the video). What caught my attention
above all in Seilor's talk was that the bulk of high intensity
training is being done at L4, not L3, contrary to most of what I've
heard over the years.

L3?

Can you even call it high intensity at L3?

Personally I'm still running ~75 competitions/year (orienteering),
they constitute at least 90% of my high intensity training in season,
and a large part (i.e. once a week or a little less) even in winter.

At least for me I tend to run a lot of competitions (they normally
last around 45 minutes) with an average heart rate in the 90-92% of
max range, this is supposedly just on the border between L4 and L5.

(170+ with a 185 max measured during a max O2 test.)

When I'm out of shape I can't average more than 155 or so.

BTW, I remember meeting Jay W when we visited Jay T for the Masters
World Orienteering Champs in Minnesota around 1995, nice that he's
still doing well!

Terje

--
- Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

wrote:
Per the Norwegian Olympic Cmte Top Performance Group manual for
endurance athletes from ~2005, L3 is considered around lactate
threshhold (USST guide also).

L3 - 80-87% VO2max, 82-87% max HR, lactate 2.5-4.0 mmol, 50-90 mins tot.
L4 - 87-94% VO2max, 87-92% max HR, lactate 4.0-6.0 mmol, 30-50 mins
L5 - 94-100% VO2mx, 92-97% max HR, lactate, 6.0-10 mmol, 15-30 mins

Thanks, I've never noticed that info, what I've seen from Garmin etc had
the boundaries a point or two lower;

L4 from 87 to 92%, for 30-50 mins corresponds very closely with my own
experience, where I've done 90% for an 80-min race and 93% for 40 min.

The exact boundaries will be a little bit fluent anyway, simply from the
difficulty in measuring max HR: Is it really 185 for me as measured
during that max O2 test (which also did full EKG monitoring at the same
time), or the 187 bpm value which my Garmin watches claim to have seen? :-)

The Norwegian international orienteering team has been tested (by that
Oly Top Perf group), they all ended up in the 90-93% range for
competitions lasting about 1 hour.

Terje


Gene


On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 21:42:34 +0200
Terje Mathisen wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 06:16:39 -0700 (PDT)
wrote:

Gene,

Thanks for posting this. I found it quite interesting. My
performance has suffered in the past couple of years, and I think
I've fallen into the black hole, particularly when I look at
results of older guys who are really kicking my arse.

I wonder if a Birkie pin will help my work career. I'd still like
to do that race.

Hi Jay,
During my annual perusal of Birkie results, I saw you were still
racing the Birkie and up there towards the top. What would a
Birkie be without you...

While the basic message of the research is not new to many x-c
skiers who pay attention to this sort of training info, there's
still a lot of resistance and outright denial to it, especially in
the States. No pain, no gain has a lot of adherents (one well known
one wouldn't even look at the video). What caught my attention
above all in Seilor's talk was that the bulk of high intensity
training is being done at L4, not L3, contrary to most of what I've
heard over the years.

L3?

Can you even call it high intensity at L3?

Personally I'm still running ~75 competitions/year (orienteering),
they constitute at least 90% of my high intensity training in season,
and a large part (i.e. once a week or a little less) even in winter.

At least for me I tend to run a lot of competitions (they normally
last around 45 minutes) with an average heart rate in the 90-92% of
max range, this is supposedly just on the border between L4 and L5.

(170+ with a 185 max measured during a max O2 test.)

When I'm out of shape I can't average more than 155 or so.

BTW, I remember meeting Jay W when we visited Jay T for the Masters
World Orienteering Champs in Minnesota around 1995, nice that he's
still doing well!

Terje

--
- Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"


--
- Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

Terje, I certainly remember meeting over at Tegeders. He kind of gave up skiing, at least competitively, a number of years ago. As for my training, I know that I've given up on doing intervals in the summer and even fall, and that my easy workouts have increased in speed. I've entered the black hole.. I'm sure my results would improve with more discipline. So, I'm looking at purchasing a Garmin 310xt to get me using a heart rate monitor again. My old polar works with my bike receiver, but not my wrist unit.

You guys are invited to participate over at www.xcskiforum.com. I bet there is more traffic and I find it an easy interface.

Jay

mnhoser wrote:
Terje, I certainly remember meeting over at Tegeders. He kind of gave
up skiing, at least competitively, a number of years ago. As for my

I do hope he's still skiing!

training, I know that I've given up on doing intervals in the summer
and even fall, and that my easy workouts have increased in speed.

I've realized a long time ago that the only polarization I would get in
off-season (i.e. winter) would be from doing easy xc skiing workouts,
like when I'm skiing with my wife Tone.

If you're only doing 30% of the total hours you should, then it is
probably best to retain those 30% as L4 interval only.

Since that trip to the twin cities I've won the Norwegian Veteran's
Orienteering Champs, when I was 44, 49, 55 and 56 years old.

Last year (i.e. when I was 57) I spent the entire year either waiting
for a pretty complicated ankle/heel operation or recuperating from it, I
hope I can get back to close to my old form this year!

I've entered the black hole. I'm sure my results would improve with
more discipline. So, I'm looking at purchasing a Garmin 310xt to get
me using a heart rate monitor again. My old polar works with my bike
receiver, but not my wrist unit.

I really like my new Garmin 620, the impact timing and stride statistics
are quite interesting, particularly when you've spent parts of the race
scrambling through heather & marshland. :-)

You guys are invited to participate over at www.xcskiforum.com. I bet
there is more traffic and I find it an easy interface.

Jay! Where's your sense of tradition & history?

Don't you know that usenet is the real origin of the internet? When my
old company got online in the early eighties it was via a 64 Kbit/s link
to the university in Bergen, and it was done specifically so they could
join some usenet groups. :-)

The newsfeed was transferred over UUCP (unix-to-unix copy program), a
long time before TCPIP or DNS names.

Terje


--
- Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"