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Rotation and Counter Rotation
There was a bit of talk about rotation and counter
rotation in other threads so I thought I'd make a synopsis in a new thread. One of the basic elements of skiing that a *huge* portion of the skiing population lack is counter rotation. They rotate, but they don't counter rotate afterward. In other words, they throw the outside shoulder around in the direction of the turn to help turn the skis, continuing this through the finish of the turn. They end the turn with the outside shoulder moving uphill, and are out of balance and position to start the new turn. To explain, further: Around the 1940's, the technique that was being taught here in the US was the Arlberg technique. This is what the 10th Mountain Division was taught, along with most everyone else. The idea was, you rotate your shoulders in the direction you want to go, then the skis will follow. This was an exaggerated rotation, to the point where the shoulders were parallel to the skis at the start of a turn. Some time later, the same Austrians who showed up with the Arlberg technique years before, began advocating a turning of the shoulders in the *opposite* direction you want the skis to go in order to turn the skis. Sort of like the sixties dance, the "twist". Shoulders go one way, hips go the other. For every action, is an opposite reaction. Thus began a huge over-intellectualized debate in the sixties about whether you should "rotate" or "counter rotate". The Americans who had been rotating for years like the Austrians told them, didn't want to counter rotate like the Austrians were now (then) telling them. It wasn't correct. Sound familiar? Somewhere along the line, apparently without ever realizing or codifying it, people began to do both. That is, rotating and counter rotating as they skied. After that, PSIA decided that they would call counter rotation "counter". If you say counter rotation in an exam you'll get docked. It's not correct. I'm not sure what the correct PSIA term for rotation is, in fact I'm not sure there is one. I think they/we might be calling both rotation and counter rotation "counter". But to me, *this* isn't correct. I hate that word correct, but it's simply not what people do. You either rotate, or counter rotate, or both. All skiers do either or both of these all the time. Rotation is turning your shoulders in the direction you want the skis to go, counter rotation is turning the shoulders in the *opposite* direction you want the skis to go. Either will turn the skis in the direction you want to go. "Quiet upper body, keep belly button toward lodge, keep body facing down the hill, face the lift hut". All these speak to rotation and counter rotation. They are *actually* as follows: If you are connected at the waist (the muscles are tight so that there is no independent movement between torso and hips), and you turn your shoulders in the way you want the skis to go, the skis will turn that way. If you are disconnected at the waist, (ab and back muscles loose) and you turn your shoulders the *opposite* way you want the skis to go, the skis will indeed, go that same way that you want them to go. You can turn your skis by turning your shoulders in the direction you want the skis to go, or in the *opposite* direction you want the skis to go. Rotation and counter rotation. Basically, what people do today is rotate (anticipate?) through the first half of the turn and counter rotate (counter?) through the second. Today the skis are turned more through steering, skidding and the bending of the ski than by the motion of the shoulders alone. Rotation and counter rotation are used more for equilibrium of the body in relation to the skis, than to actually turn them by turning the shoulders. But you still can if you want to. Turn your skis with your shoulders that is. In all these years, the basic mechanics of skiing haven't changed. They are all still there for *you* to use any way that *you* want to. Regardless of what you "should" do, or what is "correct". All you need to do is understand the basic mechanics of skiing. |
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#2
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Rotation and Counter Rotation
"foot2foot" wrote in message ...
There was a bit of talk about rotation and counter rotation Snip the exasperatingly long and dubious information Hey Foot, there's a huge difference between being in an anticipated or countered position and putting yourself in one. Besides, only skidders routinely are employing the positioning you describe anymore. Most modern skiers are more or less square with their skis except in really short turns, when they wish to skid more than carve. |
#3
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Rotation and Counter Rotation
Kneale Brownson wrote:
"foot2foot" wrote in message ... There was a bit of talk about rotation and counter rotation Snip the exasperatingly long and dubious information Hey Foot, there's a huge difference between being in an anticipated or countered position and putting yourself in one. Besides, only skidders routinely are employing the positioning you describe anymore. Most modern skiers are more or less square with their skis except in really short turns, when they wish to skid more than carve. If you're skidding, you're doing it wrong. |
#4
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Rotation and Counter Rotation
"Kneale Brownson" wrote in message om... "foot2foot" wrote in message ... There was a bit of talk about rotation and counter rotation Snip the exasperatingly long and dubious information Hey Foot, there's a huge difference between being in an anticipated or countered position and putting yourself in one. Besides, only skidders routinely are employing the positioning you describe anymore. Most modern skiers are more or less square with their skis except in really short turns, when they wish to skid more than carve. For those of you who don't know by now, Kneale is a highly ranked and experienced PSIA instructor. A decent spokesman if nothing else. Thanks for the input here, but Kneale, you (whom I'm constantly pressing for relevant PSIA info and tips via email, by so doing getting very good stuff) must admit, that complicated terms aside, all people are doing today is to rotate through the first half of the turn, and counter rotate through the second. This is all that quiet upper body is. It's being made more complicated than it is. Also, by not explaining the simple mechanics of this to the student so they can make their own choices about how much or how little to use, and when, are actually doing a disservice to the student. Instead, the tendency is to tell the student to look and ski "like this" without ever saying why or what the real mechanics behind it are. And again, I'm just missing the distinction you make between putting yourself in a countered position and being in one. To me, it's just making something that's simple unnecessarily complicated. I guess if nothing else I'm right in that rotation has become "anticipation" and counter rotation has become "counter". Why does it have to be renamed? Why not just call it what it was originally called? The original terms are more intuitive and illustrative than the new. Also, you must admit, the history section of the post was accurate. |
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Rotation and Counter Rotation
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#6
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Rotation and Counter Rotation
foot2foot wrote:
It's being made more complicated than it is. You can say *that* again. -- //-Walt // // The Volkl Conspiracy |
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Rotation and Counter Rotation
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#8
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Rotation and Counter Rotation
lal_truckee wrote:
foot2foot wrote: For those of you who don't know by now, Kneale is a highly ranked and experienced PSIA instructor. He's still not doing it right if it causes him to skid. Doesn't matter who he is. C'mon lal. When did you convert to the "always carve, all the time" school? There are (or should be) lots of tools in the kit - you know that more than anybody around here. -- //-Walt // // The Volkl Conspiracy |
#9
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Rotation and Counter Rotation
foot2foot wrote:
For those of you who don't know by now, Kneale is a highly ranked and experienced PSIA instructor. He's still not doing it right if it causes him to skid. Doesn't matter who he is. |
#10
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Rotation and Counter Rotation
Walt wrote:
lal_truckee wrote: foot2foot wrote: For those of you who don't know by now, Kneale is a highly ranked and experienced PSIA instructor. He's still not doing it right if it causes him to skid. Doesn't matter who he is. C'mon lal. When did you convert to the "always carve, all the time" school? There are (or should be) lots of tools in the kit - you know that more than anybody around here. Point is: Skid when you want to skid, not because a misapplication of a particular technique "caused" a skid. But people were carving long before "carving skis." Nothing to it but balance and appropriate pressure control, then or now. |
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