A Snow and ski forum. SkiBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » SkiBanter forum » Skiing Newsgroups » Alpine Skiing
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Wedge vs. Stem; The Difference.



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old December 4th 04, 10:15 PM
Dmitry
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"foot2foot" wrote

Because in most cases, it has taken people *years*
to move from the bunny hills to parallel skiing on the
blues. That's why almost all new skiers quit after the
first day. This system solves that problem.


Are you talking about those "ski three times a year" kinda
people?

I've witnessed no less than five people of very different
background start skiing parallel on their first or
second day with very little external influence. They
all had grave problems with more difficult terrain though,


Exactly. The magic turns system is what enables a very
new skier to take the steep greens and the blues within
hours.


Well, if this is the case (blues within hours), than this
is of course totally worth preaching.

Going straight on a flat board just isn't a good idea.


Some people have great problems with it, some are just fine.
It depends a lot on how their bindings are set up (highback
forward lean and angles). I can set up mine to have a lot
of stability just bombing on flat board, but this makes
other things less comfortable.

Especially for a beginner No?


First useful thing a beginner usually learns is J-turns,
which essentially is going from flat to lots of edge. And
the major issue is, just like with skis, they're waaay to
far back on the board.


Ads
  #22  
Old December 4th 04, 10:16 PM
Dmitry
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"LePheaux" wrote

I could understand something like this when learning
to snowboard (in fact, that would be really great and
save a lot of broken tailbones), but for skis it should
only be good for reeeeally athletically challanged
chikens.

It's OK dumbass We know you don't catch on quick if at all.


**** off, moron.


  #23  
Old December 4th 04, 10:23 PM
Dave M
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

foot2foot wrote:

"Dave M" wrote in message



How young do you think this can start? Should someone, say four or five,
be doing this?

Dave M



If you're speaking abou the skiing, before age six you run into
a child who thinks magically. Everything is fantasy and they really
can't understand cause and effect. As such you have to make
learning into game and fantasy. After about age six, they move into
concrete thinking, and you can explain and they understand.
Otherwise, yes. You want them in home position, and forward on
the skis.





I was speaking of my daughter who is 4 and a very crucial (in her mind)
half. She has been on skis for two seasons already and enjoys it a lot.
I was just rying to figure out how to explain your ideas to her in a way
that she can a) understand and b) follow or if she is too young for the
magic turn idea altogether.

DAve M.

  #24  
Old December 5th 04, 03:43 AM
The Real Bev
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Dave M wrote:

I was speaking of my daughter who is 4 and a very crucial (in her mind)
half. She has been on skis for two seasons already and enjoys it a lot.
I was just rying to figure out how to explain your ideas to her in a way
that she can a) understand and b) follow or if she is too young for the
magic turn idea altogether.


What happens if you say "Follow me down the hill"? Can she turn to
follow you even if she doesn't know what she's doing? Like teaching a
kid to ride a bicycle -- take the pedals off and pretty soon the kid can
balance long enough to pedal when you put them back on. The result is
what counts, not the intellectual process by which it was arrived at.

--
Cheers,
Bev
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is.
  #25  
Old December 5th 04, 04:16 AM
yunlong
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"foot2foot" wrote in message ...
OK, Britt wants to know the difference, (he claims, maybe he
just wants more argument for argument's sake) and it actually
comes up all the time, you try to explain magic turns and sooner
or later somebody pipes up and says "yeahhh that's just the old
stem christy". But it's not.

People have for all modern skiing time learned to ski in a
wedge for the most part. The question then arose and still does,
how do you get the student to move from wedge turns into
making parallel turns, often called "matching the skis"?


Actually, I use the terms differently, though they may reflect the
same predicament. The "Wedge" remains the same old Wedge as you
described, however, the "Stem" takes on a different meaning.

Imo, the wedge turns are the fundamental/foundation of downhill
skiing. Some may claim that they learn how to skiing begin with
parallel skiing, and that "seems" to be very cool; however, as for the
"all terrains" capability goes, a good knowledge on how the wedge
works is indispensable, as the wedge stance and wedge turn maybe the
only techniques to get one out of a tight spot such as in the high
sierra boulders and glades.

Figure that we all know how the wedge turn works; let's now take a
look the problems that hold back the beginners, the "Stem."

The "Stem" happens mostly at the half way through a wedge turn when
the downhill/outside ski exhausts its turning power and yet the
uphill/inside ski refuses to take over the responsibility of
supporting the skier's weight (due to fear, maybe?), which causes the
downhill/outside ski heavy and traveling faster than the uphill/inside
ski, which distorts the V into asymmetric shape and causes the
uphill/inside ski gets caught on the inside edge--the skier is
"stemmed." The "stemmed" edge wedges vertically as well, thus prevents
turning, and with the straightened inside knee pushes the ski
downward, the skier only ends up crash.

The "stem" is the worst offender to prevent the beginners to progress
into parallel turn, methinks. The solution? Un-stem it, that is,
flatten the stemmed edge so the edge would slide outward and downward,
which is actually the proper curved path of a downhill/outside ski.
How? By bending the uphill/inside knee slightly while still
maintaining the proper V, let the whole "platform" slides and turn to
where the V point points. If the balance were maintained, the skier
would have turned it.


Today, use magic turns.


One more tip, when "matching the skis," always bring the uphill/inside
ski back on the uphill/outside edge, which would prevent you from
getting caught on the downhill/inside edge, or get "stemmed."

fwiw, have funs,
IS

......
  #26  
Old December 5th 04, 04:47 AM
LePheaux
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"foot2foot" wrote in message
...
"LePheaux" wrote in message
...

I don't think it could have been explained any better.
BTW you say you ski the North Wet.


The *whole* NW. More the east north west now, for the
quality of the snow, and the scary wilderness, old times
atmosphere factors.

when can I get you out here to the Seattle area to do some turns, and

maybe
have you give my second year*skiers a lookover and a tuneup?
I'll pick up your ticket /lunch and beer.


You're more likely to catch me in Canada, Wyoming, Idaho
or Montana this year. But, the beauty of this system is, you
*can* explain it in text or aloud, and people can use it.

For more experienced skiers, you can teach to the mechanics
of skiing.

The real trick comes in watching the skier and figuring out
what's wrong. Are they skiing with their shoulders, hands
falling back, leaning to the outside, or inside too far? Are
they rotating all the way through the turn? Could they
use more flexion and extension, can they steer effectively?

Etc. But, when people have the magic turns framework, they
can do it. I know of a ten year old (eleven this year) who
teaches magic turns and makes skiers out of beginners.

He's starting to pick up on the mechanics of the ski, and
how to help more advanced skiers by teaching to them.


I'm thinking you totally missed the person to person hey how ya doing
wanna do some in person type interfaceing that means drink beer, not..

Reading how to teach / learn is like masturbating compaired to real sex.
it just doesn't get it done.
my kids will continue to take professionel lessons by some of the best i've
seen.

If you would like to see how *you* messure up to the real INSTRUCTORS come
on out and do an evaluation.
and be evaluated at the same time.

Till then keep on keeping on.
no face time. no value.


  #27  
Old December 5th 04, 07:31 AM
foot2foot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"LePheaux"


I'm thinking you totally missed the person to person hey how ya doing
wanna do some in person type interfaceing that means drink beer, not..

Reading how to teach / learn is like masturbating compaired to real sex.
it just doesn't get it done.
my kids will continue to take professionel lessons by some of the best

i've
seen.

If you would like to see how *you* messure up to the real INSTRUCTORS

come
on out and do an evaluation.
and be evaluated at the same time.

Till then keep on keeping on.
no face time. no value.


Yea, sort of like a Jekyll and Hyde thing, huh?

Bad poster - good poster.

If there ever was a *real* battle of the instructors, in which
they actually teach and are measured on the results they get,
I'd show up for sure. But there never will be, because the
last thing most instructors want to have looked at is how
well they actually teach. They'd rather look pretty in formation,
and believe that means something.


  #28  
Old December 5th 04, 07:33 AM
foot2foot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Dave M" wrote in message
news:ANqsd.441017$wV.105768@attbi_s54...
foot2foot wrote:

"Dave M" wrote in message



How young do you think this can start? Should someone, say four or five,
be doing this?

Dave M



If you're speaking abou the skiing, before age six you run into
a child who thinks magically. Everything is fantasy and they really
can't understand cause and effect. As such you have to make
learning into game and fantasy. After about age six, they move into
concrete thinking, and you can explain and they understand.
Otherwise, yes. You want them in home position, and forward on
the skis.





I was speaking of my daughter who is 4 and a very crucial (in her mind)
half. She has been on skis for two seasons already and enjoys it a lot.
I was just rying to figure out how to explain your ideas to her in a way
that she can a) understand and b) follow or if she is too young for the
magic turn idea altogether.

DAve M.


You could try to explain it but I doubt you'd have much luck
yet. She would just interpret it in terms of fantasy. The pieces
probably wouldn't connect as they should. Muscle memory
is the key to teaching really young kids.

You could ski backward and grab her feet and manipulate
them to show her what's up. You could demonstrate in
exaggeration and ask her to mimic you. Follow me stuff works
a lot of the time.

If you can create games, it really helps with pre school kids.

She's probably in the backseat. Some say, that age of child
must be in the backseat due to the size of the head, but I don't
think that's always true.

Lots of different activities on the skis in which she picks up
the tail of a ski (directly under her, not to the side) and leaves
the tip on the snow will naturally work into the disappearing of
the wedge. Home position games work as well. Keep from
spilling the hot chocolate cups, that kind of thing.

She could probably understand home position and be able
to produce it if you ask her to, then it will incorporate into
her skiing.

Hopefully she has some kind of "almost twin tip ski", you can
have her hold her poles out in front of her with both hands
horizontally, and use those as a means to push her backward
up the hill. For this to work, she'll need to resist your push with
her stomach and arm muscles. This too will help to teach her
muscle memory for parallel skiing. Push her up backward, let
her go to some terrain stop. Repeat. Most kids really like that
as well.

To be honest, at that young of an age it really doesn't matter.
She's years ahead of most people who will learn to ski
anyway, and she'll get better and better soon enough.

But then again, it certainly doesn't hurt to take the time to
work with her to help her improve.

If you wanted to know how I explain the basics to anyone
age six/seven or older, I could go into that, it's really easy.



  #29  
Old December 5th 04, 07:33 AM
foot2foot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"yunlong" wrote in message


Actually, I use the terms differently, though they may reflect the
same predicament. The "Wedge" remains the same old Wedge as you
described, however, the "Stem" takes on a different meaning.

Imo, the wedge turns are the fundamental/foundation of downhill
skiing.


I'm going to throw up another post about the relationship
between the wedge and the slipped parallel turn. I have
to agree with you on this point.

Some may claim that they learn how to skiing begin with
parallel skiing, and that "seems" to be very cool; however, as for the
"all terrains" capability goes, a good knowledge on how the wedge
works is indispensable, as the wedge stance and wedge turn maybe the
only techniques to get one out of a tight spot such as in the high
sierra boulders and glades.


Figure that we all know how the wedge turn works; let's now take a
look the problems that hold back the beginners, the "Stem."

The "Stem" happens mostly at the half way through a wedge turn when
the


(I remove "uphill" here from "uphill/outside").

******/outside ski exhausts its turning power and yet the


(I remove "downhill here from "downhill/inside").

I so remove so I can understand this a bit more easily :)


********/inside ski refuses to take over the responsibility of
supporting the skier's weight (due to fear, maybe?),


which causes the
**/outside ski heavy and traveling faster than the /inside
ski, which distorts the V into asymmetric shape and causes the
**/inside ski gets caught on the inside edge--the skier is
"stemmed." The "stemmed" edge wedges vertically as well, thus prevents
turning, and with the straightened inside knee pushes the ski
downward, the skier only ends up crash.


The "stem" is the worst offender to prevent the beginners to progress
into parallel turn, methinks.


It's garbage. It should die a deserved death just like any
further mention at all of "uphill or downhill ski".

The solution? Un-stem it, that is,
flatten the stemmed edge so the edge would slide outward and downward,
which is actually the proper curved path of a l/outside ski.
How? By bending the uphill/inside knee slightly while still
maintaining the proper V, let the whole "platform" slides and turn to
where the V point points. If the balance were maintained, the skier
would have turned it.


One more tip, when "matching the skis," always bring the **/inside
ski back on the **/outside edge, which would prevent you from
getting caught on the **/inside edge, or get "stemmed."


Then of course, I imagine that you would be referring to what in
modern terminology would be "pinky edge" and big toe edge"?




  #30  
Old December 5th 04, 12:48 PM
yunlong
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"foot2foot" wrote in message ...
"yunlong" wrote in message


Actually, I use the terms differently, though they may reflect the
same predicament. The "Wedge" remains the same old Wedge as you
described, however, the "Stem" takes on a different meaning.

Imo, the wedge turns are the fundamental/foundation of downhill
skiing.


I'm going to throw up another post about the relationship
between the wedge and the slipped parallel turn. I have
to agree with you on this point.

Some may claim that they learn how to skiing begin with
parallel skiing, and that "seems" to be very cool; however, as for the
"all terrains" capability goes, a good knowledge on how the wedge
works is indispensable, as the wedge stance and wedge turn maybe the
only techniques to get one out of a tight spot such as in the high
sierra boulders and glades.


Figure that we all know how the wedge turn works; let's now take a
look the problems that hold back the beginners, the "Stem."

The "Stem" happens mostly at the half way through a wedge turn when
the


(I remove "uphill" here from "uphill/outside").

******/outside ski exhausts its turning power and yet the


(I remove "downhill here from "downhill/inside").

I so remove so I can understand this a bit more easily :)


"Downhill" and "uphill" are used to reference the skis position in
relation to the slope, and "inside" and "outside" are used to
reference the ski position in relation to the turning, most the time
they are referring the same ski, but there are circumstances that they
are different (e.g. turning downward on the upper part of a vert, or
the like).



********/inside ski refuses to take over the responsibility of
supporting the skier's weight (due to fear, maybe?),


which causes the
**/outside ski heavy and traveling faster than the /inside
ski, which distorts the V into asymmetric shape and causes the
**/inside ski gets caught on the inside edge--the skier is
"stemmed." The "stemmed" edge wedges vertically as well, thus prevents
turning, and with the straightened inside knee pushes the ski
downward, the skier only ends up crash.


The "stem" is the worst offender to prevent the beginners to progress
into parallel turn, methinks.


It's garbage. It should die a deserved death just like any
further mention at all of "uphill or downhill ski".


Most beginners only know "uphill" and "downhill" as they haven't
figured out what is inside or outside of a turn as they don't know
what a turn is.


The solution? Un-stem it, that is,
flatten the stemmed edge so the edge would slide outward and downward,
which is actually the proper curved path of a l/outside ski.
How? By bending the uphill/inside knee slightly while still
maintaining the proper V, let the whole "platform" slides and turn to
where the V point points. If the balance were maintained, the skier
would have turned it.


One more tip, when "matching the skis," always bring the **/inside
ski back on the **/outside edge, which would prevent you from
getting caught on the **/inside edge, or get "stemmed."


Then of course, I imagine that you would be referring to what in
modern terminology would be "pinky edge" and big toe edge"?


That would work, as long as they identify the proper edge and their
functions.


IS
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New thread LAL, PSIA wedge. foot2foot Alpine Skiing 10 November 28th 04 11:35 PM
Time Machine, 1930's -The Pure Stem foot2foot Alpine Skiing 12 May 28th 04 07:26 PM
difference Solden- Ischgl Nigel (Remove NOSPAM) European Ski Resorts 6 March 17th 04 11:55 AM
The difference swing weight makes Jeff Potter Nordic Skiing 0 November 8th 03 03:07 PM
M/L Binding? Is there a huge difference? John Snowboarding 7 October 27th 03 07:04 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 SkiBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.