Best way to train uphill skating on flat terrain?

On Thu, 13 May 2004, Ken Roberts wrote:

Gene Goldenfeld wrote
Where did you see a recommendation of shorter poles
for rollerskiing . . . I've never seen any general
recommendation of the kind.

Whenever Nathan Schultz writes something, I make a point of reading it
carefully. I found this article on "Important Rollerski Tips" in the
Pre-Season 2004-2004 issue of The Master Skier magazine:
http://masterskier.com/articles/0304...erskitips.html

As I'm sure Gene suspected, the advice for shorter poles relates to
"dryland exercises" which is pole hiking, hill bounding, etc. - not roller
skiing. You should use your regular length poles (with roller ferrules)
for roller skiing, and then shorter pole when you are hiking.
-Ken S.

************************************************** *********
Kenneth Salzberg
Hamline University
School of Law (651) 523-2354
1536 Hewitt Ave.
Sisu Skier - 50K Club St. Paul, MN 55104
************************************************** ****************

J999w wrote:

I used to train for (non-skating) skiing by climbing 13 stories of stairs
wearing a backpack with weights in it. I usually took the elevator down
between laps -- to reduce impact on my knees and ankles.


Ohhhhhhhh ... this sounds familiar !

We used to do this same workout once a week in the math building at the U of
Wis - Milwaukee. 12 stories plus a basement and sub basement. Sub 2 minute
intervals taking two steps at a time with hands on the lower back - speedskater
style. You can vary the workout by starting one floor higher each rep, or
conversely working your way down one floor each time up. For a while, we drew a
number from a hat, and that was the floor we'd start from. This is a lot of fun
if you're with someone else ... pure agony by yourself.

Right, I've BTDT.

My current office building has 5 regular floors, a basement and two
parking garage levels below that.

When my knees didn't allow any kind of flat or downhill running, I could
still work up a sweat running/jogging up all the floors, then take the
elevator back down.

These days I have a _much_ better alternative:

Park by Midtstuen on the Holmenkollen tram/tube line, the run up one of
the many ski/sledge trails to Frognerseteren. Take the tram back down.

Repeat ad libitum. :-)

Terje
--
-
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

http://masterskier.com/articles/0304...erskitips.html

Wow the type is small on that page.

JT

Here's the passage in question:
"For dryland exercises, it’s usually best to get an old pair of poles
that are 10cm shorter than your classic poles. This is due to the fact
that you’re not gliding across the snow when you’re doing dryland.
Each poling motion has to be shorter because you are not covering the
same ground that you would be when you are moving quickly across the
snow. So if you use your regular length poles, you will bog down with
the arms and practice incorrect timing all summer."

Ken, dryland here refers to hoofing it, not rollerskiing, otherwise,
none of this would make sense. On rollerskis one glides across the
pavement, similar to snow, but not so when directly on land. The
shorter poles and shortened poling motion are meant to compensate for
the latter.

Gene


Ken Roberts wrote:

Gene Goldenfeld wrote
Where did you see a recommendation of shorter poles
for rollerskiing . . . I've never seen any general
recommendation of the kind.

Whenever Nathan Schultz writes something, I make a point of reading it
carefully. I found this article on "Important Rollerski Tips" in the
Pre-Season 2004-2004 issue of The Master Skier magazine:
http://masterskier.com/articles/0304...erskitips.html

Ken

um, Gene: every bit of Nathan's article
is about rollerskiing. Nathan makes no
mention of anything that doesn't involve
a wheel on the ground. What do you
mean by "hoofing"? Can I assume running
or hopping?

Nathan's point is that full-length poles will
slow your cadence (because pavement is
slower than snow) and thus screw up your
on-snow timing.

Bob

"Gene Goldenfeld" wrote in message
...
Here's the passage in question:
"For dryland exercises, it's usually best to get an old pair of poles
that are 10cm shorter than your classic poles. This is due to the fact
that you're not gliding across the snow when you're doing dryland.
Each poling motion has to be shorter because you are not covering the
same ground that you would be when you are moving quickly across the
snow. So if you use your regular length poles, you will bog down with
the arms and practice incorrect timing all summer."

Ken, dryland here refers to hoofing it, not rollerskiing, otherwise,
none of this would make sense. On rollerskis one glides across the
pavement, similar to snow, but not so when directly on land. The
shorter poles and shortened poling motion are meant to compensate for
the latter.

Gene


Ken Roberts wrote:

Gene Goldenfeld wrote
Where did you see a recommendation of shorter poles
for rollerskiing . . . I've never seen any general
recommendation of the kind.

Whenever Nathan Schultz writes something, I make a point of reading it
carefully. I found this article on "Important Rollerski Tips" in the
Pre-Season 2004-2004 issue of The Master Skier magazine:
http://masterskier.com/articles/0304...erskitips.html

Ken

The title notwithstanding, Nathan makes a transition from rollerskiing
to (other) dryland exercises with poles. Try rollerskiing with 10cm
short poles to see why the difference. Or write him to verify it if you
want. All I mean by 'hoofing' is being directly on land: walking,
striding, bounding or whatever else you can think of.

GG

Bob wrote:

um, Gene: every bit of Nathan's article
is about rollerskiing. Nathan makes no
mention of anything that doesn't involve
a wheel on the ground. What do you
mean by "hoofing"? Can I assume running
or hopping?

Nathan's point is that full-length poles will
slow your cadence (because pavement is
slower than snow) and thus screw up your
on-snow timing.

Bob

"Gene Goldenfeld" wrote in message
...
Here's the passage in question:
"For dryland exercises, it's usually best to get an old pair of poles
that are 10cm shorter than your classic poles. This is due to the fact
that you're not gliding across the snow when you're doing dryland.
Each poling motion has to be shorter because you are not covering the
same ground that you would be when you are moving quickly across the
snow. So if you use your regular length poles, you will bog down with
the arms and practice incorrect timing all summer."

Ken, dryland here refers to hoofing it, not rollerskiing, otherwise,
none of this would make sense. On rollerskis one glides across the
pavement, similar to snow, but not so when directly on land. The
shorter poles and shortened poling motion are meant to compensate for
the latter.

Gene


Ken Roberts wrote:

Gene Goldenfeld wrote
Where did you see a recommendation of shorter poles
for rollerskiing . . . I've never seen any general
recommendation of the kind.

Whenever Nathan Schultz writes something, I make a point of reading it
carefully. I found this article on "Important Rollerski Tips" in the
Pre-Season 2004-2004 issue of The Master Skier magazine:
http://masterskier.com/articles/0304...erskitips.html

Ken

On Thu, 13 May 2004, Bob wrote:

um, Gene: every bit of Nathan's article
is about rollerskiing. Nathan makes no
mention of anything that doesn't involve
a wheel on the ground. What do you
mean by "hoofing"? Can I assume running
or hopping?

Um, Bob, Nathan was using a term of art - confusing to those whose
training hasn't been in an organized, coached context. Roller skiing is
not "dryland" dryland is any training done on shoes, like pole hiking,
hill bounding, ski walking, and even circuits (another term of art).
-Ken S.


************************************************** *********
Kenneth Salzberg
Hamline University
School of Law (651) 523-2354
1536 Hewitt Ave.
Sisu Skier - 50K Club St. Paul, MN 55104
************************************************** ****************

Ken,
Before you get shorter poles, have Sharon videotape
you and take a look at what is happening with your
"non-hang" shoulder and pole-plant angle.

I suspect that you are rotating too much towards your
hang side, and dropping your non-hang shoulder down
and in. This means that you plant the pole at an
angle which causes it to skid off the pavement.

Work on keeping your upper body a little more forward
facing, and definitely NOT dropping that shoulder.

Take a look at videos of good skaters climbing and
note what's happening with that non-hang side: poles
are still more or less parallel and in the direction
of travel, and plant is straight down (or straightER)

Chris Cline
SLC, UT
--- Ken Roberts
wrote:
further west in New Jersey last Sunday -- and
remembering Andrey's
accomplishment three years ago -- I skated all the
way up Fiddlers Elbow
hill for my first time. Toughest paved climb in the
state: average
steepness at least 12% grade, with a section over
15%. Of course I used no
speed reducer. And fast hard wheels.

But I kept doing true V1 technique with offset
double-poling all the way to
the top -- no switch to "diagonal" poling on the
steepest part.

One problem I notice with V1 offset double-poling on
pavement is that my
pole tip on my pole-recovery side (non-hang-side)
sometimes fails to grip
the pavement -- rather disconcerting when you're in
the middle of a steep
climb.

I think that's one of the reasons to use _shorter_
poles for dryland
training -- so the angle of the tip into the
pavement is more vertical, so
less chance of the pole-tip doing some "skating" of
its own.

Ken
_____________________________________
"revyakin" wrote
Aero 150s, speed reducer on "4". Worked just
fine for me when I lived in central Jersey.











__________________________________
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Ken (and Chris),
I think in looking at good skaters you'll see them all over the map on
the off side pole. Those with broader shoulders will have it way out and
almost perpendicular. On the other end, some like their hand well
across, about their normal double-pole distance apart (I prefer that).
In the latter case, the pole will definitely be angled, as it must to
avoid the offside ski. Pole angle, per se, shouldn't cause slipping, if
the ferrule is properly angled and sharp, and the asphalt is accepting.
That's a hard one to call w/o seeing a video. Chris may be correct that
the problem stems from what's happening on the strong side, that you're
tending to tilt to the outside during poling rather than keep your
shoulders (and hips) square to the angle of the skate. However, based
on what I saw last summer/fall, it's more likely squaring up is only the
tip of the iceburg and that the main problem is what's happening from
the hips on down. Before venturing there, I'd prefer to see where
you're at now.

Gene



Chris Cline wrote:

Ken,
Before you get shorter poles, have Sharon videotape
you and take a look at what is happening with your
"non-hang" shoulder and pole-plant angle.

I suspect that you are rotating too much towards your
hang side, and dropping your non-hang shoulder down
and in. This means that you plant the pole at an
angle which causes it to skid off the pavement.

Work on keeping your upper body a little more forward
facing, and definitely NOT dropping that shoulder.

Take a look at videos of good skaters climbing and
note what's happening with that non-hang side: poles
are still more or less parallel and in the direction
of travel, and plant is straight down (or straightER)

Chris Cline
SLC, UT
--- Ken Roberts
wrote:
further west in New Jersey last Sunday -- and
remembering Andrey's
accomplishment three years ago -- I skated all the
way up Fiddlers Elbow
hill for my first time. Toughest paved climb in the
state: average
steepness at least 12% grade, with a section over
15%. Of course I used no
speed reducer. And fast hard wheels.

But I kept doing true V1 technique with offset
double-poling all the way to
the top -- no switch to "diagonal" poling on the
steepest part.

One problem I notice with V1 offset double-poling on
pavement is that my
pole tip on my pole-recovery side (non-hang-side)
sometimes fails to grip
the pavement -- rather disconcerting when you're in
the middle of a steep
climb.

I think that's one of the reasons to use _shorter_
poles for dryland
training -- so the angle of the tip into the
pavement is more vertical, so
less chance of the pole-tip doing some "skating" of
its own.

Ken
_____________________________________
"revyakin" wrote
Aero 150s, speed reducer on "4". Worked just
fine for me when I lived in central Jersey.









__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Movies - Buy advance tickets for 'Shrek 2'
http://movies.yahoo.com/showtimes/movie?mid=1808405861

Ken,

Another 'tip' to prevent pole slipping on pavement that helped me a lot
is to avoid rotating your pole during the poling. To do this without
thinking, relax your grip and use the strap for the entire poling motion
from the plant to the follow through.

Jim


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