looking for better technique isn't worth it

Peter H. wrote
try to stay wild for 2.5 hrs straight.

Yes, Ken, and here's a way to do it. Make your next
European trip to Norway.

Why is it up to me to do this comparison of Poling vs No-poles?

Here's a way to do it: You go to the east side of Gatineau Park. Start at
the parking lot and skate up to that wide highway with those views: Once
with Poling, once with No poles. Let us know how it comes out.

Or if somebody wants to fly (or drive) to some long hill in Norway just to
do that comparison, that's their business. I'll do mine closer to home at
lower cost. (Except I might be able to get talked into a time trial skating
up Mill Creek Canyon in mid-January)

I'll bet your legs are in far better shape to do 10 more
of your shorter test climbs after doing one
with the help of poling than after one without poling.

That's probably right -- but I did some hard short sprints with V1 poling
today, and I felt plenty tired from them.

Actually I'm finding myself suddenly less interested in No-poles skating --
now that I'm discovering how much _fun_ skating with Poling can be out on
the interesting streets and roads around NY-NJ-PA.

Ken

Ken Roberts wrote:
Peter H. wrote
try to stay wild for 2.5 hrs straight.

Yes, Ken, and here's a way to do it. Make your next
European trip to Norway.

Why is it up to me to do this comparison of Poling vs No-poles?


You're sounding a wee bit touchy, Ken, on Christmas
day. Maybe lack of snow is getting to us. The answer,
to coin a phrase (ha!), is that extraordinary claims require
extraordinary evidence (from those who make the claims),
whether they are claims about flying saucers, or claims about
how small a percentage the poling contributes in skate skiing.

Here's a way to do it: You go to the east side of Gatineau Park. Start at
the parking lot and skate up to that wide highway with those views: Once
with Poling, once with No poles. Let us know how it comes out.

Or if somebody wants to fly (or drive) to some long hill in Norway just to
do that comparison, that's their business.

In Gatineau, you can get 3 or 4 kms. of more-or-less continuous climb,
so that would be pretty good, but not extraordinary. Doing that little
bit would
be just getting into rhythm in the climb away from Rena. There is no
other really well-groomed (skate, hopefully) trail I know of that comes
close to that, maybe 90 minute, test, so there's where you get your
extraordinary evidence (maybe, but I doubt it).


I'll do mine closer to home at
lower cost. (Except I might be able to get talked into a time trial skating
up Mill Creek Canyon in mid-January)

I'll bet your legs are in far better shape to do 10 more
of your shorter test climbs after doing one
with the help of poling than after one without poling.

That's probably right -- but I did some hard short sprints with V1 poling
today, and I felt plenty tired from them.

Actually I'm finding myself suddenly less interested in No-poles skating --
now that I'm discovering how much _fun_ skating with Poling can be out on
the interesting streets and roads around NY-NJ-PA.

Ken

Yes, it's too bad we're still all stuck on the old rollerskis. But at
least, till today,
the roads have been okay, not full of slush and freezing rain.

Best, Peter

Peter H. wrote
extraordinary claims require extraordinary
evidence (from those who make the claims)

Exactly what is this "extraordinary" claim?

Ken

Ken Roberts wrote:
Peter H. wrote
extraordinary claims require extraordinary
evidence (from those who make the claims)

Exactly what is this "extraordinary" claim?

Ken


Here's a couple of versions. I don't think it's out of context,
but reading some of your other posts,
I must admit that you are not consistently
insisting what these seem to say
(and actually once you get it up to 20%,
my word "extraordinary" is perhaps unfair!):

Poling with skating .... compared with No-poles skating.....seems
worth only 8%, and
that's too high, because it doesn't count that my legs were getting
more
tired after the previous timed intervals. And my best time with V1
poling is
still 4% slower than my best Legs-only time.

And later:

I've tried two more time trials of skating up hills with poles
versus
without on asphalt. One of them took more than 20 minutes climbing
up 345
vertical meters (1130 ft), average steepness grade 10% -- using
poles was
only about 15% faster than No poles.
Even after more training, I'd be surprised if my speed gain from
poling is
going to become higher than 20%.

And I'd forgotten this 20 minute effort---still far
from the 90-110 minutes going
from Rena up the little mountain,
but where was that 1130 feet?
It's more than you'd get in a single cimb,
I think, at you suggested Gatineau.

Best, Peter

Thanks for taking the time to clarify the claims, Peter.

Actually I'm hoping that I can get to more than 20% faster using Poles help
skate up hills. But having been out there trying to achieve that for the
last couple of months, feeling how hard it's been just to get to 8% and 15%,
has made me less than optimistic.

It would be great to see a report on r.s.n from you or somebody else who had
worked hard on Leg technique and then was also able to go 35% faster by
adding Poling. I bet there are some national team coaches and racers who
know what their percentage difference it. But so far it doesn't sound like
anybody who posts here has tried measuring.

I suspect that if I had tried the comparison four years ago, I would have
been like 40%-50% faster by using Poles to help, than skating up a hill with
Legs only.

Ken