Is there a skill level system?

foot2foot wrote:
"Walt" wrote in message

The point is to build good habits on the easy terrain so that when the
going gets tough you'll naturally do the right things because that's
what your habits tell you to do.

Stemming is a bad habit - among other things it promotes late weight
shift - and will cause you to do precisely the *wrong* thing when the
terrain gets steep. Dump it.


There's no such thing as a "bad habit". This is arrogance speaking.
Who is the one to determine a thing is "bad"? For that matter,
define "bad".

There is also no such thing as "should", nor any such thing as
"correct", nor such a thing as "unlearn".


Ok. You've got me there.

Who was the famous economist who said "In the long run, we're all dead"?

--
// Walt
//
// There is no meaning to existence...

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 20:34:15 -0800, "Richard Henry"
wrote:


"tm" wrote in message
...
Walt wrote:

Who was the famous economist who said "In the long run, we're all dead"?

John Maynard Keynes

Who said "A million here, a million there, sooner or later it adds up
to real money."

It was Everett Dirksen, Senator from Illinois, and it was billions.




"Billion here, billion there, pretty soon you're talking big money"

is what Dirksen said.



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"foot2foot" wrote in message
...

"littlebirdwithaknife" wrote in message
...

"foot2foot" wrote in message
Perhaps I could put it this way. The first levels,
something around one through six can be accomplished
in two hours of instruction. The big step is moving
from the "stem" of the outside ski, or the use of a
wedge to turn, or to begin a turn, to a turn in which skis
remain parallel start to finish.

The big step is not sweating the difference between a parallel turn and
a
turn starting with a stem.

A more effective method is to start a turn with a wedge,
if need be, then learn to leave it alone. The "stem" is truly
a concept that belongs to the old days.

Maybe I don't understand the term "stem" as it pertains to the old days. I'm
just talking about creating a wedge with the outside ski to help initiating
the turn, while the inside ski tracks relatively straight (in relation to
the turn, that is).

The key is to let go
of the big toe edge of the inside ski as soon as possible.
If you never even get on that inside ski big toe edge, you
have a parallel turn, no matter how clumsy.
This is best accomplished by gettting the student on one
foot at a time as soon as this can be done. The key to
getting on one foot at a time is picking up the tail of the
inside ski while leaving the tip on the snow.

The problem, is, a wedge does not work well on
anything but a very gentle slope.

A pure snowplow turn doesn't work well, you're right, but a stem to
start
the turn is pretty much essential for a vast majority of skiers trying
to
negotiate more difficult terrain, and in my experience it "works" pretty
darn well.


Ah, but the use of a *wedge* to initiate the turn is so
much preferable to the use of a stem. The use of the
wedge to initiate is one of the reasons the student makes
fast progress.

Perhaps you could define wedge vs. stem for me? I think we may be arguing
the same point.


A good solution is
to simply not spend hardly any time at all in the wedge
as the student learns.

Right on. There's no point teaching people to snowplow down the bunny
hill
when their skis want to run straight as they cross the fall line.

Thanks for the reply, this is interesting.

"Walt" wrote in message
...
littlebirdwithaknife wrote:


A pure snowplow turn doesn't work well, you're right, but a stem to
start
the turn is pretty much essential for a vast majority of skiers trying
to
negotiate more difficult terrain, and in my experience it "works" pretty
darn well. As long as people don't view stemming as some sort of a
failure,
and as long as they have proper instruction, they can use a stem to
build
confidence on steeper terrain and in different conditions. Gradually the
level at which they are forced to stem will rise.

I disagree. Stemming may work pretty darn well as long as you stay on
the moderate pitches, but above a certain steepness stemming simply
won't work at all and is a major hinderance.

By "stemming" I'm just talking about forming a wedge with your outside ski
while the inside ski stays fairly neutral. If stemming means something else
where you are, then I apologize.

Let's say you stop half way down a steep, tight line, in knee-deep pow, say
to rescue a friend who's taken a beater. You find yourself needing to make a
quick turn in short order to get yourself turned around, and for some reason
you just don't feel like doing a kick turn or a jump turn. You point
yourself downhill, make a wedge and ride the turn out. Problem solved.

For some skiers every turn feels like that. If the skier is shifting his
weight at the wrong time, then I'll address that problem, but I don't see
why it would have come from the wedge at the beginning of the turn. All he's
doing is widening his base of support. Everything else about the turn should
be the same -- if it's a mess then the terrain is probably too much for him.

If you're in the habit of
stemming when the terrain gets gnarly because stemming gives you
confidence, you're in for trouble.

The point is to build good habits on the easy terrain so that when the
going gets tough you'll naturally do the right things because that's
what your habits tell you to do.

Stemming is a bad habit - among other things it promotes late weight
shift - and will cause you to do precisely the *wrong* thing when the
terrain gets steep. Dump it.

--
//-Walt
//
// There is no Volkl Conspiracy

"littlebirdwithaknife" wrote in message

Maybe I don't understand the term "stem" as it pertains to the old days.
I'm
just talking about creating a wedge with the outside ski to help
initiating
the turn, while the inside ski tracks relatively straight (in relation to
the turn, that is).

Perhaps you could define wedge vs. stem for me? I think we may be arguing
the same point.

The actual progression goes like this:

Ski straight down a gentle hill in a parallel stance,
then spread the skis out into a wedge and edge the
skis to slow down, then steer the skis back into a
parallel stance to speed up, then repeat. As you edge
the skis in the wedge, keep equal pressure on each ski
so that you continue in a straight line, without turning
to one side or the other.

This is a wedge changeup.

Turn this sideways (traverse, then wedge), then pick
up the tail of the inside ski while leaving the tip on the
snow if you want to complete a turn. There you have
an instant parallel turn.

Your hands must remain forward throughout.

To initiate with a wedge, the weight is kept equal
on both skis, and both skis extend out equally into
a wedge.

In a stem, from a parallel stance, only one ski is
angled out from the parallel stance.

From a two footed stance in parallel, all the weight
is moved to the new inside ski, (body is out of position
at this point in an unnecessary motion) the new outside
ski is angled out in the direction of the new turn (a
clumsy move in which the new outside ski is moved
well outside the center of balance of the body), the
weight is then moved to that new outside ski (another
clumsy move that is only made necessary by the
move onto the inside ski) and the turn is completed.

This approach is unnatural as compared to a purely
parallel turn. With a wedge initiation, the weight is kept
equally on both skis until the transfer to the outside ski is
made, and the body is basically left where it is the whole
time. So, a parallel turn is actually *half a wedge*.

You can build on this turn, and it translates directly to
a parallel turn, which a stem does not.

A parallel turn is actually half a wedge turn.

Instead of leaving one ski in position, and angling out
the other ski, in a wedge initiation the skier extends
both skis equally into a wedge, then completes the
turn.

littlebirdwithaknife wrote:
"Walt" wrote

I disagree. Stemming may work pretty darn well as long as you stay on
the moderate pitches, but above a certain steepness stemming simply
won't work at all and is a major hinderance.

By "stemming" I'm just talking about forming a wedge with your outside ski
while the inside ski stays fairly neutral. If stemming means something else
where you are, then I apologize.

We're talking about the same thing. The problem is that to initiate a
stem, you have to take weight off of the outside ski. This shifts
your weight to the inside ski. At some point later in the turn you
have to shift your weight back to the outside ski. This late weight
shift is a problem - you can get away with it on moderate terrain, but
it'll bite you in the steeps.

For a really good discussion of stemming and the importance of early
weight shift, see Chapter 4 of "Breakthrough on the New Skis" by Lito
Tejada-Flores. He explains it much better than I can. You can look
it up on amazon.com and search within the book for "stemming".



// Walt
//
// There is no Volkl Conspiracy

In message , Walt
writes
littlebirdwithaknife wrote:
By "stemming" I'm just talking about forming a wedge with your
outside ski
while the inside ski stays fairly neutral. If stemming means something else
where you are, then I apologize.

We're talking about the same thing. The problem is that to initiate a
stem, you have to take weight off of the outside ski. This shifts your
weight to the inside ski. At some point later in the turn you have to
shift your weight back to the outside ski. This late weight shift is a
problem - you can get away with it on moderate terrain, but it'll bite
you in the steeps.

It certainly looks rather inept, but the hills are alive with hackers
who turn like that, and it does seem to work for them. They revert to
it when they aren't feeling confident, as if sticking a foot out to
start with guarantees the turn will actually happen.
How steep does the slope have to be to cause them problems, and what are
the problems?
--
Sue ]=

Sue wrote:
Walt writes

We're talking about the same thing. The problem is that to initiate a
stem, you have to take weight off of the outside ski. This shifts
your weight to the inside ski. At some point later in the turn you
have to shift your weight back to the outside ski. This late weight
shift is a problem - you can get away with it on moderate terrain, but
it'll bite you in the steeps.

It certainly looks rather inept, but the hills are alive with hackers
who turn like that, and it does seem to work for them.

Yep, there sure are. It's what's commonly called the "intermediate
rut". And if you're satisfied with being stuck at that level, fine.
Go out, have fun. There's nothing wrong with having fun on the slopes
as an intermediate. It's like golf or sex - you don't have to be
good at it to enjoy it.

But, if you want to improve you gotta cut out the stemming.

They revert to
it when they aren't feeling confident, as if sticking a foot out to
start with guarantees the turn will actually happen.

You're absolutely right, it's as a confidence builder. The steeper
the slope, the bigger the stem. The problem is that the very thing
that they're using to build confidence is what's holding them back
from improving.

How steep does the slope have to be to cause them problems, and what are
the problems?

It delays the weight shift until after the turn has started. If you
try to shift your weight to the outside ski in the middle of the turn
you're almost guaranteed to skid sideways. Or you chicken out and
don't manage to commit to the outside ski at all and blow the turn.
The steeper the slope, the more likely this is to happen.

Check out Lito's book fo a better, more detailed explanation.

--
// Walt
//
// There is no Volkl Conspiracy

In message , Walt
writes

It delays the weight shift until after the turn has started. If you try
to shift your weight to the outside ski in the middle of the turn
you're almost guaranteed to skid sideways. Or you chicken out and
don't manage to commit to the outside ski at all and blow the turn. The
steeper the slope, the more likely this is to happen.

Thanks - that would be a vicious circle, since you'd never really be
confident about your turns. Especially on "firm" conditions.

Check out Lito's book fo a better, more detailed explanation.

Not at transatlantic shipping rates!
Besides, I'm already convinced, I found turning on one foot takes less
effort.

Now, what are the poles for, apart from fending off feral goats?
--
Sue ];(

Sue wrote:

In message , Walt
writes

It delays the weight shift until after the turn has started. If you try
to shift your weight to the outside ski in the middle of the turn
you're almost guaranteed to skid sideways. Or you chicken out and
don't manage to commit to the outside ski at all and blow the turn. The
steeper the slope, the more likely this is to happen.

Thanks - that would be a vicious circle, since you'd never really be
confident about your turns. Especially on "firm" conditions.

Check out Lito's book fo a better, more detailed explanation.

Not at transatlantic shipping rates!
Besides, I'm already convinced, I found turning on one foot takes less
effort.

Now, what are the poles for, apart from fending off feral goats?

Pushing off when you're going too slow. Picking up candy wrappers that
slobs have discarded. Spearing squirrels or snowsnakes. I've never
understood what people say about using them to time your turns -- it
would seem that then you have TWO things to think about rather than just
doing the turn and getting on with it, but then again I'm a terminal
intermediate who is happy to stem when she is at the very edge of a
steep run pointing the wrong way and wishes to turn immediately from a
standing start.

You can use them to fend off feral boarders, too.

--
Cheers,
Bev
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is.