Our snowboarding misadventure at Seven Springs

A couple of weeks ago, I started a thread here, "Snowboarding or skiing?",
that generated much discussion and many helpful contributions from group
members. To recap, I'm 42, my son is 14, and neither of us had ever
snowboarded before. We decided to give the sport a shot at the Seven Springs
resort near us in Pennsylvania. I thought the group might be interested in
learning how our first day went. Those with a low tolerance for tedium may
wish to stop reading now.

What went right:
*After reading about how to dress for the slopes, we bought long underwear,
fleece, goggles, snowboarding gloves, etc. We were quite warm today.
*Our rental boots & boards used step-in bindings, which turned out to be
invaluable -- not just for getting into the bindings, but also for getting
out of them. I often found that the only way to get from one place to
another on the hill was to pick up the board and walk.
*The snow-covered trees in the mountains southeast of Pittsburgh were very
pretty.

What went wrong: Just about everything else.

Actually, our first day of snowboarding was supposed to have been last
Sunday, but my son got sick and we had to postpone the trip for a week. Too
bad, because last week was consistently cold, and I think the snow was in
better shape (though mostly machine-made). This week was very cold up until
yesterday, when the temperature suddenly rose, and it rained for a while.
Then it turned colder again. The result was a wetter, icier environment.

The day got off to a comic start this morning as I was viewing the Seven
Springs snow report on my notebook computer. I walked across the room to
show it to my wife, then returned to my seat, still staring at the screen.
Unfortunately, the screen was not transparent, so I did not see the footrest
sticking out from the couch, which I tripped over magnificently. I banged
and scraped my foot, shin and knee, though the computer happily survived.
This turned out to be my worst fall of the day, though I'm not sure I can
legitimately claim it as snowboard-related.

At the beginning of the drive to Seven Springs, we were descending a steep
hill in our area that turned out to be ice-covered and unsalted. The car
spun around several times before ending up in a grassy field on the side of
the road. Luckily, we didn't hit anything, so we were able to pull back onto
the road, gingerly crawl down the rest of the hill, and resume the trip. But
the near-accident turned out to be a bad omen.

Seven Springs has a beginner package for $65 that includes boots and board
rental, a 90-minute group lesson, and a limited access lift ticket. (The
package is cheaper for skiers, because the ski rental costs less. Why is
that?) We purchased two of these packages for a total of $130. We never even
got near a lift today, so I guess we lost money on that part of the deal.

I had thought that equipment selection and use would be part of the lesson,
but it wasn't. A guy just handed us boots after learning our shoe sizes.
There was no effort to ensure a truly good fit, or to explain how all the
various fasteners worked. I had to keep going back to the rental desk to ask
questions. After we got one of my son's boots on and fastened, I noticed
that the other one was missing a strap, so we had to start again with a new
pair. My own boots were size 11. I suppose that they fit me adequately after
a lot of tugging on the laces, but I think that the model was probably too
wide to start with. My heels felt a bit loose, and there was a certain
Frankenstein's monster quality to my stomping.

After all the boots were tied, I happened to look down at my hand and notice
that the skin was shredded on two fingers from all the lace pulling. The
rental clerk responded vacantly when I asked where first aid was, so I just
wandered around until I thought of trying the childcare area. Sure enough,
the supervisor there had a whole box of first aid supplies, so I was able to
find a couple of bandages for my fingers.

My son and I were given the same model of snowboard (Rossignol), though his
was a little longer than mine. That struck me as odd, since we are within
..25" to .5" in height (he is tall for a 14-year-old -- about six feet), but
I outweigh him by 40-50 pounds. When we finally got out on the slope, I
discovered that the binding for my front (left) foot was almost
perpendicular to the major axis of the board, which turned out to be
inconvenient for me. There was so much angle to the foot placement that it
hurt to twist my left knee when I had to scoot with the left foot on the
board and the right foot pushing. Also, I keep my balance much better when I
can turn my left foot more toward to the direction in which I'm heading. It
felt awkward to have it pointing to the side. Our instructor said it was
possible to rotate the binding on the board, but I tried it on the hill and
it didn't budge.

The group lesson itself turned out to be of little use. There were about
five groups of eight for the 2:00 p.m. snowboarding beginners' lesson, and
probably as many for the skiing lesson, so if you pictured the slope as very
crowded, you'd be right. I was the only adult in our group of eight. The
instructor went through a series of lessons in a set order, and from my
perspective it didn't seem to make much difference whether the students
mastered a step or not before the next came along. Stand on the board | Push
the board | Slide with both feet on the board, but only one in the bindings
| Toeside turn | Heelside turn | Try both feet in the bindings | Now try
linking turns. I wasn't close to being able to turn effectively -- in fact,
I really couldn't get the board on edge at all -- when we were supposed to
try linking turns. I'd say that of the eight people in the group, perhaps
two (both little kids -- this seems to be a relatively bad sport for taller
folks to learn) could do a half-decent single turn. Everyone else would
slide down the hill a bit, make some kind of effort, perhaps turn a little,
then flop over in a heap. This was about one hour into the lesson. At this
point my son, who was very far from enjoying himself, and I just left.

An even bigger problem, from my perspective, was that the slope was so
crowded. Boarders and skiers were everywhere, moving in every direction, or
sometimes just sitting or lying on the snow. It's fine for a skilled
instructor to maneuver among the crowds, but I don't think it's right to ask
someone like me to learn in such conditions. Child beginners tend to be
heedless of where they'll end up when they start moving. However, as an
adult, I have the responsibility to think about where I'm heading. Also,
though I'm not a huge person, I'm an adult male and can do some damage to
anyone I collide with. I know that once my board starts moving, I can't stop
and I can't turn. When the slope is crawling with people, where am I
supposed to go? I can't just say, "Anyone in my path be damned!" As a
result, most of my trips were very short. Once I picked up a little speed, I
seemed to have no choice but to take a dive in order to stop before I became
a missile.

By the way, is it possible for a snowboard to be too fast, at least for a
beginner? A little more friction would have been welcome. I didn't like the
foot-on-a-banana-peel sensation of zipping away with no control. Since the
sport has no "crutch" -- the hand on the wall for the novice skater,
training wheels or a parent's grip for a new bicyclist, poles for the
beginning skier -- there doesn't seem to be a way to master the balancing
gradually.

On the whole, the experience was like learning to ride a bicycle by going
downhill with no brakes, and with dozens of pedestrians and other riders
crossing in front of you. When we were seated in the shuttle bus headed back
to the parking lot, my son remarked, "Well, that's one thing I never want to
do again. That was horrible."

Anyway, if we do this again -- and I'm not sure we will, given my son's
perspective and my disinclination to go alone -- we'll have to try private
lessons and figure out when there'll be some real open space available for
learning. I'm not sure what to do about equipment. Today's experience
confirms my general view that it's impossible to make progress in anything
with one-size-fits-all rental stuff (I didn't start improving as a skater
until I got my own, well-fitting skates), but it's very expensive and
probably imprudent to buy equipment we may seldom use. I already feel as
though today's $130 was flushed away with little to show for it.

Sorry for the extreme length of this report. If you're still awake, thanks
for reading.

Joe Ramirez

"Joe Ramirez" wrote in message
...

What went wrong: Just about everything else.

Joe, I am really sorry to hear that. I am sure many others on the group
have, like me, seen friends and family members with a similar experience on
their first day, or had a similar experience first hand. When I see this
happen I always think if only he/she would persevere a little bit longer
they would get it and I am sure others would echo that.

Learning to snowboard, for most people, does take a degree of commitment to
go through the hard knocks and steep learning curve. We have all been there
and can attest to the fact that despite that rather crestfallen feeling
after the first few hours that "I'll never be able to do this" you can!
Doubtless you saw others snowboarding and it seemed like an impossible leap
in ability to go from that beginner slope to cruising effortlessly down the
mountain. It is not! So have a rest, take a break and recover but please do
not give up.

It certainly does not help that things went badly with equipment,
instruction and crowds but it does not have to be that way.

Consider going to a smaller ski hill to learn where it will be less
crowded - you are not going to need extensive trails just yet. Try and rent
equipment the afternoon before you need it when everyone else is out on the
slope and the staff have time to advise you properly, try a specialist
snowboard shop for rentals rather than the general ski/snowboard rental desk
at the mountain lodge. Book a private lesson and invest in some protective
clothing: padded skating or hockey shorts (snowboard specific ones are very
expensive), skate wrist guards and knee pads. You may have to spend a little
bit more money but you will not regret it.

I suspect that if you really meant never to try snowboarding again you would
not have come back to tell us about your experience so take heart from the
encouragement you will undoubtedly get here and give it a fresh start.


Luke
-------------------------
http://www.snowgo.com

"Playdreamer" wrote in message
...

Consider going to a smaller ski hill to learn where it will be less
crowded - you are not going to need extensive trails just yet. Try and
rent
equipment the afternoon before you need it when everyone else is out on
the
slope and the staff have time to advise you properly, try a specialist
snowboard shop for rentals rather than the general ski/snowboard rental
desk
at the mountain lodge. Book a private lesson and invest in some protective
clothing: padded skating or hockey shorts (snowboard specific ones are
very
expensive), skate wrist guards and knee pads. You may have to spend a
little
bit more money but you will not regret it.

There's a ski hill in a nearby public park, Boyce Park, that is supposed to
be good for beginners (perhaps because it's too tame for experienced snow
sliders). We may try that place if I can persuade my son to give
snowboarding another shot. Boyce Park is closer and cheaper than Seven
Springs, so we may even be able to go there on weekday nights. If we go, we
will definitely get a private lesson if available.

Thanks,

Joe Ramirez

Are there any dry slopes near you? They are much more difficult to board on
but a lot slower, and with decent lessons (which by the sounds of, you
definately didn't have) you'll pick it up in a safe controlled manner.
At your standard you should not be travelling forward at all IMHO, as you
noted you will soon become a fast moving uncontrolled projectile.
You say that you couldn't get an edge at all, but you should be on an edge
at all times, flat running at your level (and mine for that matter is
lethal).
Side slipe on both heal and toes edges untill you are in complete control of
speed and the board.
Then try falling leaf (side slip going side to side) on both heal and toe
edges. Then try the same but turning a little more into the fall line and
back to perpendicular to the slope again.
Gradually turn more into the slope as you get more confident but still keep
on either toe or heal edge, do not try and swap edges. Do this in both
directions on both toe and heal edges.
Do not progress unless you are in complete control.
Once you control the board safely from Heal edge to straight down fall line
and back to heal edge stop and the same for toe edge, then and only then try
swaping from heal edge start to straight line and toe edge stop. Doe this
heal-straight-toestop and toe-straight-healstop until you are completely
happy with it and your control, this is the hardest bit to conquer and can
take time, but just take things slowly.
When mastered, try not coming to a complete stop but carry on traversing
accross the slope and put in another turn in the opposite direction, and so
on down the slope.
Once you are at that stage you are well on the way to becoming a well 'ard
boarder dood ;o)

Hope that helps, but don't take any of that as gospel as I'm a learner
myself.

"David Brown )" wrote in message
He's gone for boarding (see later thread), but I reckon
he'll be skiing after the first week )

"Joe Ramirez" wrote in message
O ye of little faith! We shall see.

Joe Ramirez

Either that or go and get some skis )

--
David Brown )
http://kitemap.co.uk/stack

"David Brown )" wrote in message
...
Are there any dry slopes near you? They are much more difficult to board
on
but a lot slower, and with decent lessons (which by the sounds of, you
definately didn't have) you'll pick it up in a safe controlled manner.

What are dry slopes? Are they those artificial turf hills with slippery
pellets?

At your standard you should not be travelling forward at all IMHO, as you
noted you will soon become a fast moving uncontrolled projectile.
You say that you couldn't get an edge at all, but you should be on an edge
at all times, flat running at your level (and mine for that matter is
lethal).

Yes, that was my problem. The board was flat and I was going much too fast.

Side slipe on both heal and toes edges untill you are in complete control
of
speed and the board.
Then try falling leaf (side slip going side to side) on both heal and toe
edges. Then try the same but turning a little more into the fall line
and
back to perpendicular to the slope again.

Many people have mentioned this "falling leaf" technique. Is it a standard
lesson for beginners? If so, why didn't we use it?!

Thanks,

Joe Ramirez

"Joe Ramirez" wrote in message
Many people have mentioned this "falling leaf" technique. Is it a standard
lesson for beginners? If so, why didn't we use it?!

If your instructor didn't even mention falling leaf or garlands, then it
looks like your lesson was even worse than I thought.
There are various snowboarding tutorials on the net, I've found some before
with video, so have a search around and read up before you next go (even if
it is for a private lesson).
When I get home I'll see if I have any in my favourites.

--
kitemap
http://ugcc.co.uk

Joe,

Sorry to hear your experience with learning to Snowboard, although not
uncommon. I rented twice and never bothered with lessons before I broke
down and paid 350$ for a board setup.

Your absolutely right about the "kids" running the rental place just handing
you the equipment and saying go for it. This is also true with lessons from
what I have heard. Other than what has been said before, like renting from
a small shop the day before, I would suggest taking a person that knows how
to board. Ask a friend (adult) or the kid next door to go with you for the
day. Hell! Save the money you would spend on lessons and buy a lift ticket
for helping you. They can walk you through the boot and board selection
much better than the people there will. Also they should bring along a
Philips screwdriver so you don't have issue with binding angles. (Note: an
ok place to start with bindings angles is about 20 in front and -6 in the
back, if you want to try duck stance [usually a good place to start])

It confuses me that you didn't get on a lift. Learning to snowboard is all
about having enough slope. If you stay on things which are too flat you
will not be able to carve. After boarding for two years it is still
difficult to board without speed. It is like a bike, the faster you go the
easier it is to balance or in this case turn, up to a point. Don't worry,
every boarder bails of the lift the first time, I did it and everyone I have
taught has done it.

I understand that you don't want to hit people as a human projectile. I
have this issue as well being 6'5" and 200 lbs. So less crowed day would
help, not to mention non-icy conditions. The snow conditions also have a
huge impact on learning. Don't learn on ice or deep powder, neither will be
much fun. The best I think to learn on is machine packed powder that fell
within the last 3 or 4 days, so its not too too hard.

Other than that there are only two keys to snowboarding. One: Weight on
your front foot. Two: bend your knees. (whenever I take a good spill, I am
usually getting lazy on one or both of these points.)

You will be surprised how fast the learning curve is for snowboarding. I
spent 2 days falling down and after that it just starts to click. You can
become a pretty good boarding in 2 or 3 seasons compared to skiing which I
have been told takes much longer.

Definitely try it again, and I suggest taking a boarder with you who will
stay the whole day with you and help you with equipment teach you how to
board. This was evident when I learned, it took 2 days since my friends
were there but not really helping, however late last season I tough someone
who had never been on a board to link turns in 5 hours, not well but well
enough to hit hard blue runs. That's just my opinion.

ED

The best thing to do is to take another lesson at a smaller friendly
hill. The big mountains are machines that have to serve thousands of
customers the cheapest way possible.
Take another lesson, but only with you and your son, when there are 4
people in the group it is hard to get the personal attention. This
costs more but if the other 2 people in the group do not pick up fast
you will be stuck learning at there level. Get the equipent in the
morning, practice getting your balance then try some side slipping,
heel then toe side. Now you are warmed up go to your lesson.
Some tips are to wear knee pads and elbow pads, helmet and bike shorts
with padding. When you catch an edge and land on the knee pads you
will be smiling.

Hope this helps. Some people can pick it up fast while other it takes
a little longer. Good luck and do not give up on the sport!

"Snowboardripper" wrote in message
om...
The best thing to do is to take another lesson at a smaller friendly
hill. The big mountains are machines that have to serve thousands of
customers the cheapest way possible.

So I've noticed. I went to a large resort because I thought it would have
the best instructors around. The assembly line aspect of the place did not
occur to me.

Take another lesson, but only with you and your son, when there are 4
people in the group it is hard to get the personal attention. This
costs more but if the other 2 people in the group do not pick up fast
you will be stuck learning at there level.

Or, if we don't pick it up fast, they could be stuck learning at our level!
g


Get the equipent in the
morning, practice getting your balance then try some side slipping,
heel then toe side. Now you are warmed up go to your lesson.
Some tips are to wear knee pads and elbow pads, helmet and bike shorts
with padding. When you catch an edge and land on the knee pads you
will be smiling.

Thanks for the tips,

Joe Ramirez

"Edward Arata" wrote:

I would suggest
taking a person that knows how to board. Ask a friend (adult) or the
kid next door to go with you for the day. Hell! Save the money you
would spend on lessons and buy a lift ticket for helping you.

I would disagree on that.
I know a lot person who tried that, and it always ended in "ok, now you
turn" - "how?" - "well, I don't know how to explain, just try it. you
will know it soon"

It is a great difference between knowing snowboarding and knowing how to
TEACH snowboarding.


It confuses me that you didn't get on a lift. Learning to snowboard
is all about having enough slope. If you stay on things which are too
flat you will not be able to carve.

Lessons we give for beginners usually take 2 days, on the first day you
take the lift ONE time in the afternoon.
The rest of the day is basic training.

Hell, you can take the lift all the day if you want to, but without
basics you barely drive down but fall...

I understand that you don't want to hit people as a human projectile.
I have this issue as well being 6'5" and 200 lbs. So less crowed day
would help, not to mention non-icy conditions. The snow conditions
also have a huge impact on learning. Don't learn on ice or deep
powder, neither will be much fun. The best I think to learn on is
machine packed powder that fell within the last 3 or 4 days, so its
not too too hard.

Other than that there are only two keys to snowboarding. One: Weight
on your front foot. Two: bend your knees. (whenever I take a good
spill, I am usually getting lazy on one or both of these points.)

hmm, there's a lot more on snowboarding than that. rotation is the most
important for beginners, among the front foot, ok.
a normal turn is set together by a lot of small things, and if you learn
them step by step, it is really easy!


You will be surprised how fast the learning curve is for snowboarding.
I spent 2 days falling down and after that it just starts to click.
You can become a pretty good boarding in 2 or 3 seasons compared to
skiing which I have been told takes much longer.

Well, and I can promise you: if you take a lesson at a good snowboard
school, you'll learn it in 1 day!

We garuantee our beginners they can drive down a normal hill with
curves/turns in one day. We never had to take that promise back. I am
honest. We had beginners from 6 years to 60 years, they all made it.

Definitely try it again, and I suggest taking a boarder with you who
will stay the whole day with you and help you with equipment teach you
how to board.

Don't do it.
Take a lessons and depend on a maximum of 5 persons in your group. Or
take a private lesson.


Martin