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#11
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On 2005-01-10, VtSkier penned:
lal_truckee wrote: Monique Y. Mudama wrote: After (half) a day of skiing, my quads are always burning Back seat ... I couldn't have said it more succinctly myself, in fact I didn't. VtSkier I know this is a bad habit of mine. The trick is fixing it. If it causes my quad problems as well as my technique issues, that's one more bit of incentive. -- monique Longmont, CO |
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#12
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On 2005-01-10, thinnmann penned:
Monique, This is a moderated group and I am really not trying to sound rude, but if you really live that high and you really ski that much and you really mountain bike off season and play ice hockey, the quad suffering really isn't adding up, except for the 5'5" 170 lb part. If you do a BMI on that it is pretty poor. Ironic name you have there =P Believe me, the weight issue isn't a surprise to me, and all of your links and advice are old hat. I lost a lot of fat before the wedding last March; then the wedding dinners and honeymoon brought it right back. I was in awesome shape through most of the summer, but multiple illnesses, a wrist injury, and a trip to visit family out of the country all conspired to undo my hard work. I'm also on medication that probably adds 5-10 pounds of combined water and fat, but I'm switching to another variant that will hopefully eliminate that. I also have old knee injuries and arthritis that imo completely eliminate running from the "smart moves" category, aside from the fact that I absolutely hate that form of exercise unless I'm chasing after a ball or perhaps running for my life. The Covert Bailey philosophy (lots of exercise and reduced fat consumption) has been a great help to me, when I've been able to follow it. As long as I'm listing my excuses, I also have a tendency to go witless and grumpy when I haven't eaten recently, resulting in me blindly grabbing the fattiest, most sugar-laden meal I can find and wolfing it down before sanity returns. It's no good. I've just purchased glucose tablets so that I'll hopefully reach for those instead of chocolate chip cookies when I feel taht way. I was down to around 150 this summer, and I believe a good weight for me would be 140. Of course I know that weight is irrelevant, and BMI is misleading; it's actual body fat percentage that matters. [snip] Unfortunately, you should have been doing this, minimally, June - September... You will be playing catch-up now that the season is in full swing. Preaching to the choir. As I said, I worked my butt off this summer, partially in the hopes of getting the "jump" (ha, ha) on the ski season, but last year just wasn't my year in a number of ways. I have seen lots of athletes blame their equipment and spend lots of money on new stuff when they would get better results through simply improving their conditioning and losing some pounds. Fortunately, these things usually go hand-in-hand. Certainly, continue to demo stuff and make sure you are committing to proper pressuring a pair of nicely shaped edges so that they do most of the work for you. The fitness component will make you even more of a star. I don't think that new skis will solve my problems. I do suspect that a different pair of skis would be more compatible with my current skiing habits. I just brought my skis in for a massive retune/sharpening/etc, desperately needed, so it will be interesting to see if I still think that way after all the work. -- monique Longmont, CO |
#13
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On 2005-01-10, VtSkier penned:
Monique Y. Mudama wrote: (snip) Honestly, I believe that all of the above is probably of less importance than my skiing technique. I tend to "haul" on the skis to force them to turn; I think I'm fighting the mountain. When instructors, friends, etc, try to get me to feel the point where my boots are providing all of my support, I never seem to find it, whether on my old boots (salomon evolution) or my new (salomon women's xwave 8). It *always* seems like my quads are involved. So, I'll add a couple of things to my previous post. Sore quads as you describe is *often* a sign of being in the back seat. Sore quads as you describe is *often* a sign of being a little dehydrated. Feeling like you are "hauling" on the skis or "fighting the mountain" is often a sign of being in the backseat. Hrmm, there's a common thread there somewhere ... if only I could find it ... I've started carrying a camelbak, and I'm sure it helps, but I'm also sure I don't stay as hydrated as I should. Has anyone shown you drills for getting your hands forward? I've certainly worked on getting my hands forward. I tend to forget about it while focusing the other 400 things I'm supposed to do, though. I'll try to move it up my list. If you can't see your hands you are probably in the back seat. Does peripheral vision count? *grin* Actually, now that you mention it, I think I am turning my body way too far while going down the hill. This may be because I'm turning my skis way too far, though. Should my body stay facing down the hill at all times, or should it be in line with my skis? I've heard conflicting reports. I think it's the former? Do your hands move excessively? When you "crank" a turn, does one of your hands move behind you? Both hands should be visible all the time and movement is mostly from the wrist, ticking the pole on the snow as a timing move. Nothing more. Of course when you are horsing around, other things happen. I think I tend to "drag" my poles: I may remember to reach out to pole, but then I don't remember to pick the pole up right away as I go past that spot. -- monique Longmont, CO |
#14
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Monique Y. Mudama wrote:
On 2005-01-10, VtSkier penned: Monique Y. Mudama wrote: (snip) Honestly, I believe that all of the above is probably of less importance than my skiing technique. I tend to "haul" on the skis to force them to turn; I think I'm fighting the mountain. When instructors, friends, etc, try to get me to feel the point where my boots are providing all of my support, I never seem to find it, whether on my old boots (salomon evolution) or my new (salomon women's xwave 8). It *always* seems like my quads are involved. So, I'll add a couple of things to my previous post. Sore quads as you describe is *often* a sign of being in the back seat. Sore quads as you describe is *often* a sign of being a little dehydrated. Feeling like you are "hauling" on the skis or "fighting the mountain" is often a sign of being in the backseat. Hrmm, there's a common thread there somewhere ... if only I could find it ... I think you just did. I've started carrying a camelbak, and I'm sure it helps, but I'm also sure I don't stay as hydrated as I should. I'm on and off so often that I don't bother to carry water. Every patrol shack that I need to go into to sign in/out has a water cooler so I don't add external water weight, but if you don't do that, then by all means carry water and the camelbak is the best way by far. Has anyone shown you drills for getting your hands forward? I've certainly worked on getting my hands forward. I tend to forget about it while focusing the other 400 things I'm supposed to do, though. I'll try to move it up my list. Where your hands are, other things will follow. If you can't see your hands you are probably in the back seat. Does peripheral vision count? *grin* No. Actually, now that you mention it, I think I am turning my body way too far while going down the hill. This may be because I'm turning my skis way too far, though. Should my body stay facing down the hill at all times, or should it be in line with my skis? I've heard conflicting reports. I think it's the former? That's part of the question below about hands moving excessively. Generally, but not necessarily always, your body should be facing as nearly down the fall line as it can. If you are at close to 90 degrees to the fall line, this is clearly excessive, but trying to keep the upper body quiet (including your hands) and allowing you lower half to move back and forth in the turns is the ideal. Do your hands move excessively? When you "crank" a turn, does one of your hands move behind you? Both hands should be visible all the time and movement is mostly from the wrist, ticking the pole on the snow as a timing move. Nothing more. Of course when you are horsing around, other things happen. If your "pole plant" is more than a tick, you will often force yourself into the back seat. Especially if your poles are bit too long. I think I tend to "drag" my poles: I may remember to reach out to pole, but then I don't remember to pick the pole up right away as I go past that spot. I've been dragging my poles for 50 years, don't worry about it. Do worry about allowing you hand to come behind you as you complete your turn. You will fall into the back seat if you do it. I have actually thought about dragging my poles a bit. It's always the inside pole (see another thread in another location to see what I mean by "inside", it's relative to the turn). Seems like most folks consider it a bad habit. I find the tactile sensation of my pole tip moving through the snow to be a cue which helps my balance. I certainly don't DRAG it hard enough to cause any actual force against my body. I'm also one of those guys who put their hands behind the back with the thumbs locked, body slightly bent forward and with skis fairly wide apart when trying to make time on a flat runout. Don't know why, been doing it since I thought it looked Kewl 30 odd years ago. Now it's a habit. I've said a lot about hands. Putting them and keeping them where they belong and actually using them very little will cure many of the "problems" you are describing. Hope this helps. VtSkier |
#15
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VtSkier wrote:
The Real Bev wrote: "Monique Y. Mudama" wrote: After (half) a day of skiing, my quads are always burning and they're weak enough that I worry about being able to make turns well. Me too, but the big muscles in the lower leg participate in the misery too, and it hits way sooner. IME(experience), calf muscles hurting has a lot to do with boots being too tight, or not supporting your ankles well enough. I don't think that's it. Same thing happened with Tecnica TNTs, the Raichle mumblesomethings (the rear-entries with lots of adjustments) and my current boots, Nordica Air F9 Syntechs. If I try to turn by moving my knees I move way too much and crash, so I use my ankles instead (I have ****-poor feedback mechanisms), which stresses various calf muscles. That's what knocks them out. What knocks the quads out is just standing with my knees flexed for more than 30 seconds. Lifetime problem, with or without walking/bicycling/weight lifting. Really strong, but can't use it very long. Friends tell me that my thighs really shouldn't be working *that* hard. I'm told to learn to do things like "let the boot support your weight," but even standing still on skis, I can't seem to get into a position where my thighs aren't working to keep myself upright. Again my experience. My quads experience much the same as yours early in the season. As time goes by it gets less and less. I believe that this is due to two things. 1) condition/being in shape. I don't do a lot to keep my quads/hamstrings in good shape through the summer. The boots you bought (from an earlier thread) should be stiff enough to hold you upright (at the predetermined forward angle of the boot). I was under the impression that the TNTs were supposed to hold you at a decent forward angle, but apparently not. Yes, I adjusted them for max forward lean. Not enough. And, actually maybe your quads *should* be working that hard. 2) lightening up. As I get miles under me, I'm less "on guard", less tense, more flexible, or maybe not more flexible, but just more springy. Here in the east we often have less than wonderful visibility. Especially after 3:00PM, even on a relatively good day the light gets flat. Add to that real snow falling or snow guns spraying away. If I wasn't quite springy, especially in late afternoon bumps, I'd be on my ass in no time. I call it skiing in Braille. You can't see anything beyond general features, so you have to feel where you are going. Being very "springy" helps you stay upright. It's actually easier to ski when you can't see very well, providing you KNOW that there isn't anything nasty in front of you. I conclude this is right brain skiing, which works way better than left-brain skiing. Dirtbiking too. I'm also good to myself when my condition from, say, having a REALLY good day the day before makes me less than optimum. I stop often, both in terms of laps and in terms of number of turns before I stop and look up the hill as if I'm waiting for someone (it's a good ploy). I have to stop every 30 seconds or so. I'm way too old to need excuses, I just STOP! Neither can I. The standard advice is "get forward," which I believe to be true. Unfortunately, getting far enough forward to consistently feel my boot-tongues with my shins requires me to lean WAY forward, such that I am seriously out of balance if something surprising happens. I am told that I need softer boots, but since one pair of boots is rear-entry which are traditionally soft, I don't think it's a hardware problem. Bev, since you are into doing this on the cheap, we used to reinforce the tongues of our boots to limit forward lean by stiffening it in some way. Remember Raichle Flexons? You could actually buy stiffer tongues than the ones that came on the boots. Some people actually cut soup cans to fit over the boot tongue to give it more stiffness (yeah, really). Yes, I know you are still using rear entry boots. May they explode and give you cause to buy something more modern (at a yard sale, of course). Boot quiver listed above. I can honestly say that there is NO difference in performance among my boots, just comfort and ease of application. That's why I'm pretty sure it's just me. My big problem is having my ski tips deflected by piles of crud, spots of ice, etc. I keep the calves tensed to keep the skis pointed ahead rather than wherever the snow wants me to go. I think everything would work way better if I could just keep forward, relax, and BREATHE! Softer boots are being touted for modern carving skis. They will "encourage" you to find a neutral stance which isn't pressuring the boot very much at all. My AT boots are soft enough to fall into this category. My Fischer MountainX skis work very well with these boots, but my Volkl 6stars don't do very well at all. To do the things the 6stars are good at, I need to change the pressure from fore to centered to back (occasionally) with some authority. BTW, the softer boots I've seen are a frame for support with rest of the shell made of softer materials more for fix and comfort than for skiing flexibility. In fact most of the soft boots are aimed at intermediate skiers. A few, the high end Kneissl "Rail" ski boots have forward flex adjustment, just like high end Technicas. Kneissl boots are not longer made or at least no longer imported. Yes, I know, these are "carving skis" and should react OK with the soft boots, but they don't really do very well when I get into stuff that's iffy, but work beautifully with my alpine boots. I suspect that I'm fighting my skis, using too much force and not enough finesse. Any specific suggestions/drills to learn how to make it easier on my legs? It sucks when everyone else is still raring to go and you're not. Especially the morning of the second day. Waste of a lift ticket. I think I remember that your husband "lurves" bumps and you are trying to keep up with him. You might try a bump clinic sometime, not a general lesson, a bump specific lesson. You might also rent a pair of low-level (plain vanilla rentals) sometime to ski in bumps. They are often softer and more forgiving than the high performance boards that most of us own. You will get some idea of what bump-specific skis would be like from this exercise. I find it's way easier and less tiring to go lots faster. It NEVER hurts if I'm trying to catch up with somebody. The problem is that I can only do this with minimal crowds, which happens just about never -- I have to ski as fast as I can while still being prepared to avoid the erratically-moving slalom gates that cover the hill. BTW, is tomorrow MLK Day, or the 17th? I made the mistake of going skiing on MLK Day once. Worst crowds I'd ever seen. I guess people just don't know how to celebrate properly. There were so many people on some parts of my section of the area yesterday at certain times that I actually got spooked. At one wide place where several trails merge (appropriately called the mixing bowl) I stopped and looked up to see several hundred people skiing down at varying levels of skill, all between 10 and 20 feet apart. REALLY spooky. I've tried shorter and longer skis, moving the bindings fore and aft, and tightening and loosening several pairs of boots over the 10 years I've been skiing. I feel certain that if I was willing to throw a couple $thousand at the problem it could be solved, but I'm not that sort of person :-( For a given ski, any woman should mount the toepiece from one to two centimeters further forward than a man would on the same ski. This does not apply to women specific skis because the manufacturer has already taken this need into his placing the boot center mark on the skis. Simply shorter or longer skis is not necessarily the answer. Ski the ski in the size the manufacturer recommends for your height/weight/aggressiveness. Or go to the next size shorter if you don't ski at 40MPH all the time. I would LOVE to ski at =40mph all the time, but I don't know whether I've ever done it or not. I hope so. Speed is wonderful. Bev, shaped skis are beginning to come on the market very cheap. Especially used rental equipment (be careful here because condition might be REALLY bad). Some rental equipment has the kind of bindings that allow the toe piece to be moved fore and aft. Latest skis are Elan SCX 163 parabolics with rental bindings. I've moved the bindings up and back, with not that much difference. The first time I rented shaped skis was a revelation and I'll never go back. I still love my 195 MSLs, but I'll probably never use them again. Go short with shaped skis. For most women in the intermediate/advanced skill level 150 to 160 cm is enough. A really small woman should go smaller. My 6stars are 165cm. My friend the instructor is using 150cm 6stars. She's 5'-7" or so and about 135 pounds and a damn fine skier. Her husband, also an instructor, is about 5'5 and 50# heavier and hates her 6stars for various reasons. I think I was happiest with 170 cm Rossi cheap rentals last year. The 160s seemed squirrelier. The Elans were so cheap I couldn't pass them up, though! -- Cheers, Bev ================================================== =============== "A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses." -- C.M.Cipolla |
#16
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VtSkier wrote:
I've been dragging my poles for 50 years, don't worry about it. Glad to hear you say that. Theory has it that you plant to provide some sort of timing for the turn, but that sounds sort of like saying "oink" before you take each step just to keep your walking, uhhh, something... Why do I need to signal my brain before making a turn? I find the tactile sensation of my pole tip moving through the snow to be a cue which helps my balance. I certainly don't DRAG it hard enough to cause any actual force against my body. When turning to slow down, I tend to drag the poles assertively, in the manner of one who sticks one's foot out of the car and drags it on the ground when the brakes fail. (No, I didn't actually do it, but I THOUGHT about it.) I'm also one of those guys who put their hands behind the back with the thumbs locked, body slightly bent forward and with skis fairly wide apart when trying to make time on a flat runout. Don't know why, been doing it since I thought it looked Kewl 30 odd years ago. Now it's a habit. Definitely kewl, especially if you have one of those elf hats. I've said a lot about hands. Putting them and keeping them where they belong and actually using them very little will cure many of the "problems" you are describing. Yes. Need lighter poles :-) -- Cheers, Bev ================================================== =============== "A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses." -- C.M.Cipolla |
#17
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On 2005-01-10, The Real Bev penned:
VtSkier wrote: I've been dragging my poles for 50 years, don't worry about it. Glad to hear you say that. Theory has it that you plant to provide some sort of timing for the turn, but that sounds sort of like saying "oink" before you take each step just to keep your walking, uhhh, something... Why do I need to signal my brain before making a turn? I've been told to plant in order to give myself a point around which to turn. I tend to "shop around" in moguls, seeking that one perfect bump around which to turn. The assertive plant is supposed to cue me to assertively turn around that spot. Amazingly enough, it does work when I do it. I find the tactile sensation of my pole tip moving through the snow to be a cue which helps my balance. I certainly don't DRAG it hard enough to cause any actual force against my body. When turning to slow down, I tend to drag the poles assertively, in the manner of one who sticks one's foot out of the car and drags it on the ground when the brakes fail. (No, I didn't actually do it, but I THOUGHT about it.) Hrm, sounds like a good way to lose a foot without actually stopping the car. I tend to drag as a feeler, kind of like vtskier is describing. It gives me a sensation of "Oh, there's the mountain." I'm sure it doesn't look all that dignified or cool, though. I'm also one of those guys who put their hands behind the back with the thumbs locked, body slightly bent forward and with skis fairly wide apart when trying to make time on a flat runout. Don't know why, been doing it since I thought it looked Kewl 30 odd years ago. Now it's a habit. Definitely kewl, especially if you have one of those elf hats. I've started doing that, only because my husband does and he always gets across the flats faster than I do, so I thought maybe that had something to do with it ... but really ... probably not. I've said a lot about hands. Putting them and keeping them where they belong and actually using them very little will cure many of the "problems" you are describing. Yes. Need lighter poles :-) I got lighter poles. Didn't help =P They do have a very high "kewl" factor, though (leki's with detachable straps). -- monique Longmont, CO |
#18
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On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 20:40:32 -0600, "Monique Y. Mudama"
wrote: On 2005-01-10, VtSkier penned: lal_truckee wrote: Monique Y. Mudama wrote: After (half) a day of skiing, my quads are always burning Back seat ... I couldn't have said it more succinctly myself, in fact I didn't. VtSkier I know this is a bad habit of mine. The trick is fixing it. If it causes my quad problems as well as my technique issues, that's one more bit of incentive. It's a recurring bugaboo for me, too. One approach I use (in addition to all the above good advice about hand position) is to start each turn by trying to dive forward over the tips and slightly downhill. That's an exaggerated description, but basically that's how it feels if you're use to being in the back seat. Like trying to dive into a pool, except your feet are locked to the ground. Then start the next dive (to the other side) before it feels like you've finished the prior one. Not exactly orthodox terminology, but if you've gotten comfy with sitting back, getting forward really does feel that different. bw |
#19
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Monique Y. Mudama wrote:
On 2005-01-10, The Real Bev penned: VtSkier wrote: I've been dragging my poles for 50 years, don't worry about it. Glad to hear you say that. Theory has it that you plant to provide some sort of timing for the turn, but that sounds sort of like saying "oink" before you take each step just to keep your walking, uhhh, something... Why do I need to signal my brain before making a turn? In the old days (har), when you unweighted to initiate your turn, a very powerful turn was the following: From a traverse, bend your knees slightly more than they are bent for the "neutral" traverse. As you bend your knees, bring the arm and pole up in anticipation of the pole plant. As you plant the pole, straighten your legs which has the effect of flattening your skis and taking some of the weight off them. The spot where the pole is becomes something like a center point for your turn. Finish the turn by releasing the pole and bending your knees which has the effect of setting your edges and creating a platform from which you initiate your next turn. Repeat as necessary. Of course you lower body is "crossing under" your upper body as you are making your turn. And you are switching your weight from one ski to the other. This is actually a very strong turn which I still use when the going gets steep. The amount you edge when you are "creating a platform from which you initiate your next turn" controls how much speed you scrub off with each turn. It is a skidded turn as opposed to a carved turn which tends not to scrub off much speed at all. Works good in bumps and on generally steep gnarly terrain. If it's a little bumpy or with "terrain features (covered rocks, logs, stumps)", but not "patterned" bumps you might find on a bump run, you can use the bumps to augment your unweight movement which reduces the effort needed to turn and often will get the tails of your skis off the ground. If you are far enough forward, you will only lift the tails. If you lift the whole ski, you are in the backseat. I've been told to plant in order to give myself a point around which to turn. I tend to "shop around" in moguls, seeking that one perfect bump around which to turn. The assertive plant is supposed to cue me to assertively turn around that spot. Amazingly enough, it does work when I do it. Yes, but, an assertive pole PLANT can result in allowing your arm to come around behind you. The PLANT is OK if you immediately release it by tilting your hand forward so the point comes off the ground without bringing your arm back. This is why I suggest usually to not make the pole plant very assertive. Keeping forward is more important than having a point turn around. If you are in the back seat you probably can't turn where you want to. I find the tactile sensation of my pole tip moving through the snow to be a cue which helps my balance. I certainly don't DRAG it hard enough to cause any actual force against my body. When turning to slow down, I tend to drag the poles assertively, in the manner of one who sticks one's foot out of the car and drags it on the ground when the brakes fail. (No, I didn't actually do it, but I THOUGHT about it.) Hrm, sounds like a good way to lose a foot without actually stopping the car. I tend to drag as a feeler, kind of like vtskier is describing. It gives me a sensation of "Oh, there's the mountain." I'm sure it doesn't look all that dignified or cool, though. Actually nobody is noticing. I'm also one of those guys who put their hands behind the back with the thumbs locked, body slightly bent forward and with skis fairly wide apart when trying to make time on a flat runout. Don't know why, been doing it since I thought it looked Kewl 30 odd years ago. Now it's a habit. Definitely kewl, especially if you have one of those elf hats. Nah, Leedom zen model. I've started doing that, only because my husband does and he always gets across the flats faster than I do, so I thought maybe that had something to do with it ... but really ... probably not. Nah, he's just being kewl. A good tuck with your forearms and poles on your thighs and hands in front of your nose is a faster position. I've said a lot about hands. Putting them and keeping them where they belong and actually using them very little will cure many of the "problems" you are describing. Yes. Need lighter poles :-) My poles are the original Goode carbon fiber "pencil" poles. I think they were actually rental poles because the length, via moving the grip and retightening, is adjustable. They came with a lifetime warranty, are heavy as lead and I've had them for about 10 years now and they are excellent for beating the crap out of a snowboarder who hits me or gave me s--- for reprimanding him for riding under a closed trail rope. I got lighter poles. Didn't help =P They do have a very high "kewl" factor, though (leki's with detachable straps). Man, those Leki's with the detachable straps (the ones that stay on your hands when you disconnect from your poles) are the apex of kewl. |
#20
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"VtSkier" wrote in message
... IME(experience), calf muscles hurting has a lot to do with boots being too tight, or not supporting your ankles well enough. or too much short-turn training. Seriously, sore muscles are due to what you're doing with them, not the sort of boots or skis or poles you are using. A good cheat for the first week of the season, when DOMS always hits, is compression tights. I have not found them in the US yet, although they are in every ski shop in Oz, and the footballers wear them too for training. I'd love to know where they are available in the US, as they'd be perfect for people whose ski holiday is often ruined by sore legs. www.skins.com.au is the mob who supplies them in Australia. They are truly magic. I wear them for my first week of skiing twice a year; I used to spend about a week in agony, unable to sit or stand without sighing gustily, and they'd flicker at night. That's the whole legs, not just bits of them. Now, nothing. ant |
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