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New Finite Finish Structure Tool



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 5th 08, 09:52 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
ADK Skier
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 137
Default New Finite Finish Structure Tool

BNS Sports has what looks like a really hot structure tool. It cuts
the structure into the ski. Anyone have any experience or heard the
buzz about this ski tuning tool? I figure if I can ever learn to steel
scrap a ski like Zach C. and get glassy smooth finish and follow with
this new tool, I will have discovered the holy grail!
Ads
  #2  
Old December 8th 08, 07:00 AM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Anders
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 77
Default New Finite Finish Structure Tool

On Dec 5, 11:52*pm, ADK Skier wrote:

BNS Sports has what looks like a really hot structure tool. It cuts
the structure into the ski. Anyone have any experience or heard the
buzz about this ski tuning tool? I figure if I can ever learn to steel
scrap a ski like Zach C. and get glassy smooth finish and follow with
this new tool, I will have discovered the holy grail!


The latest really hot thing that comes from Sweden is the scrape
developed by guys around Uppsala univeristy. It's a sort of follow-up
or improvement on or a parallel or lateral development to Kuzmin's
disputed tool.

The relevant pages on the site are unfortunately in Swedish but maybe
the pics and/or an online translation can help a bit
http://www.primateria.se/Skidskrapan.htm


Anders

PS "Kuzmin-prepared" skis have been proven decent enough to, at least
in a certain snow condition, get you in the top forty in Mora. (To the
wisecracks out the even if you aren't a top ten guy...)

  #3  
Old December 8th 08, 07:39 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
ADK Skier
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 137
Default New Finite Finish Structure Tool

On Dec 8, 2:00*am, Anders wrote:
On Dec 5, 11:52*pm, ADK Skier wrote:

BNS Sports has what looks like a really hot structure tool. It cuts
the structure into the ski. Anyone have any experience or heard the
buzz about this ski tuning tool? I figure if I can ever learn to steel
scrap a ski like Zach C. and get glassy smooth finish and follow with
this new tool, I will have discovered the holy grail!


The latest really hot thing that comes from Sweden is the scrape
developed by guys around Uppsala univeristy. It's a sort of follow-up
or improvement on or a parallel or lateral development to Kuzmin's
disputed tool.

The relevant pages on the site are unfortunately in Swedish but maybe
the pics and/or an online translation can help a bithttp://www.primateria..se/Skidskrapan.htm

Anders

PS "Kuzmin-prepared" skis have been proven decent enough to, at least
in a certain snow condition, get you in the top forty in Mora. (To the
wisecracks out the even if you aren't a topten guy...)


Thanks once again Anders. Anders have you heard or read why Tobias
Angerer seem to be struggling this season?
  #4  
Old December 8th 08, 09:42 PM
Jan Gerrit Klok Jan Gerrit Klok is offline
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First recorded activity by SkiBanter: Mar 2006
Location: Netherlands
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Default

Machine translation, unedited:

Research has today shown that it is very important that belagens active glidytor, on micrometer level, is done very smooth if the skis will slide easily. This applies irrespective of if the skis are choice placed or not, or if they have a structure or not. One has also can sensible that glidvalla on skis in certain case is not needed in order to few one good slide. This is experienced of majority that an advantage since it often is time-consuming, difficult and costly to apply vallan and that the skis only retains slided during a shorter time.

Primateria has along with skidåkare on eliten level (Ronnie Löf) and researchers from Uppsala universities (professor Sture Hogmark) taken forward sicklar that on a simple way can give optimumly smooth contact surfaces on the skis' belag. Physicals have shown that sicklarna functioned very good both in the laboratory and in skidspåret. The physicals has also shown that sicklarna functions excellently also for choice to placed skis. It is important to point out that entirely smooth belag seldom functions good. It is required normally seen that the skis have a combination of smooth contact surfaces and a structure tailored to skidföret.

The secret in producing smooth surfaces lies in that avgrada and to buff sickelns encourages. Moreover, it acts about producing sicklarna in correct materials so that they retain their mould and lucidity during long time.

It hides itself a lot of theoretical knowledge about tribologi (the faith about how surfaces in contact with each other interagerar) behind they to is visible simple measures that do that sickeln functions to sow very better. Professor Sture Hogmark has in your research in this matter can to explain tribologiskt why skidbelaget and thereby also sickelns edge must last considerably smoother than what that is the case with the products that finns on the market today. Primateria has in collaboration with Uppsala universities performed one examensarbete where an equipment been taken forward in order to can to test and to evaluate skidbelagets friction and function against different types of snow and ice.

Primateria has sent in one pantentansökan for sickeln 2007-01-24. The project is supported financially of Innovationsbron Uppsala.

Now, we have - new sicklar to sale. Pinches and more information about sicklarna and how them will be used finds you below as PDF-filer.

If you want to buy someone or some of our products so is it only to contact ourselves per telephone (018-10 70 26) or e-mail ).

Prislista sicklar

Information sicklar (recipes and handling)

Brochure sicklar

Information about rillverktyg

Read published article about skidskrapan in Uppsala new newspaper.

Read published article about skidskrapan in new technology.

Examensarbete “Friction characteristics between ski base wild duck ice”
  #5  
Old December 9th 08, 12:48 AM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
ADK Skier
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 137
Default New Finite Finish Structure Tool

On Dec 8, 4:42*pm, Jan Gerrit Klok Jan.Gerrit.Klok.
wrote:
Machine translation, unedited:

Research has today shown that it is very important that belagens active
glidytor, on micrometer level, is done very smooth if the skis will
slide easily. This applies irrespective of if the skis are choice
placed or not, or if they have a structure or not. One has also can
sensible that glidvalla on skis in certain case is not needed in order
to few one good slide. This is experienced of majority that an
advantage since it often is time-consuming, difficult and costly to
apply vallan and that the skis only retains slided during a shorter
time.

Primateria has along with skidåkare on eliten level (Ronnie Löf) and
researchers from Uppsala universities (professor Sture Hogmark) taken
forward sicklar that on a simple way can give optimumly smooth contact
surfaces on the skis' belag. Physicals have shown that sicklarna
functioned very good both in the laboratory and in skidspåret. The
physicals has also shown that sicklarna functions excellently also for
choice to placed skis. It is important to point out that entirely
smooth belag seldom functions good. It is required normally seen that
the skis have a combination of smooth contact surfaces and a structure
tailored to skidföret.

The secret in producing smooth surfaces lies in that avgrada and to
buff sickelns encourages. Moreover, it acts about producing sicklarna
in correct materials so that they retain their mould and lucidity
during long time.

It hides itself a lot of theoretical knowledge about tribologi (the
faith about how surfaces in contact with each other interagerar) behind
they to is visible simple measures that do that sickeln functions to sow
very better. Professor Sture Hogmark has in your research in this matter
can to explain tribologiskt why skidbelaget and thereby also sickelns
edge must last considerably smoother than what that is the case with
the products that finns on the market today. Primateria has in
collaboration with Uppsala universities performed one examensarbete
where an equipment been taken forward in order to can to test and to
evaluate skidbelagets friction and function against different types of
snow and ice.

Primateria has sent in one pantentansökan for sickeln 2007-01-24. The
project is supported financially of Innovationsbron Uppsala.

Now, we have - new sicklar to sale. Pinches and more information about
sicklarna and how them will be used finds you below as PDF-filer.

If you want to buy someone or some of our products so is it only to
contact ourselves per telephone (018-10 70 26) or e-mail
).

Prislista sicklar

Information sicklar (recipes and handling)

Brochure sicklar

Information about rillverktyg

Read published article about skidskrapan in Uppsala new newspaper.

Read published article about skidskrapan in new technology.

Examensarbete “Friction characteristics between ski base wild duck ice”

--
Jan Gerrit Klok


Wow!! Thank you for sharing this but I have really difficult time
understanding the information. What I was originally implying about
smooth glass like finishes was that if a ski base is metal scrapped
correctly the finish product should have a glass like smooth finish.
However I don't think this is what the skier wants to race on. Hence
the Finish Finite Structure tool from BNS I was referring to. If
possible could you help us understand what the tool you describe does.
Does it peel the base, structure, or do both.
  #6  
Old December 9th 08, 12:14 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Anders
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 77
Default New Finite Finish Structure Tool

On Dec 8, 9:39*pm, ADK Skier wrote:

Thanks once again Anders. Anders have you heard or read why Tobias
Angerer seem to be struggling this season?


Well, his last season was such a disaster - by the standards of his
previous two seasons - mainly because he had become too cocky and
upped his training load by 10%. After a few good results early in the
season he felt too tired both physically and mentally by the time Tour
de Ski started. He even began to fall on a regular basis because he
lost concentration and wasn't really alert anymore.

This season he has backed off from such training madness - according
to national coach Jochen Behle, he's done 800 km less than last year -
and put less pressure on himself to perform well before Tour de Ski.
He also intends to skip the North American WC races in order to
concentrate on his main goal(s) in Liberec.

He won the pre-WC "training race" in Muonio. In Gällivare he had a
rather slippery pair of skis and in Kuusamo he didn't do too badly. In
La Clusaz he was already sick with flu and had to DNS the relay.
Maybe the evidence so far is misleading?

Anyway, he's had quite a few changes in the summer: he switched his
training base from Oberhof to Ruhbolding, he changed from Atomic to
Rossignol, moved into a new house and - last but not least - became
the proud father of a girl. Maybe it takes a few more races to make
things click together?


Anders

  #7  
Old December 9th 08, 12:38 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Anders
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 77
Default New Finite Finish Structure Tool

On Dec 9, 2:48*am, ADK Skier wrote:

Wow!! Thank you for sharing this but I have really difficult time
understanding the information. What I was originally implying about
smooth glass like finishes was that if a ski base is metal scrapped
correctly the finish product should have a glass like smooth finish.
However I don't think this is what the skier wants to race on. Hence
the Finish Finite Structure tool from BNS I was referring to. If
possible could you help us understand what the tool you describe does.
Does it peel the base, structure, or do both.


The Primateria scrape is in fact a suite of three scrapes: rough or
ground scrape (which peels the base pretty much like or better than
the Kuzmin scrape), structure scrape (which gives as the name implies
structure) and a polish scrape (which will return and perfect the
smoothness of the contact surface "above the structure"). All
specially designed and manufactured with special technology from
special material. Sounds almost like the stuff they sell on daytime
TV, but there seems to be a lot of genuine enthusiasm out there for
the product.

I don't claim to understand half of what I've read (and I certainly
didn't even try to read the 42-page PDF) but the whole point seems to
be to get _as a necessary precondition for getting a good glide_ a
maximally smooth and blank contact surface quite regardless whether
you have a stonegrind or not and whether you put on base wax or not
and whether you put on glide wax or not.

However - and indeed as you, too, think above - this isn't the be all
and and all; you need and want a structure and this is what the set of
scrapes is said to achieve with remarkable ease and result. The
brochure gives several methods of using the three scrapes according to
the quality of the ski base (worn or not, fine stonegrind or not) and
the snow (wet or not) ranging from a once over with two scrapes to all
three including up to five times with the structure scrape. The polish
scrape can also be used to finish after using a riller.

(Talking of rillers, the hot favourite - used among others by the
Norwegian national team - is the RS riller, whose developer speaks
favourably of the Primateria scrapes. He also says good glide consists
80% of ski choice, 18% of structure and 2% of wax, "although the
percentage can vary according to distance and snow conditions".)

I'm not sure that any of this helps you, but if I can get open-minded
skiers to experiment (or at least make experiment-willing skiers aware
that there's something going on in Sweden), I suppose my posts in this
thread have served their purpose.

Anders

  #8  
Old December 9th 08, 12:44 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
ADK Skier
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 137
Default New Finite Finish Structure Tool

On Dec 9, 7:14*am, Anders wrote:
On Dec 8, 9:39*pm, ADK Skier wrote:

Thanks once again Anders. Anders have you heard or read why Tobias
Angerer seem to be struggling this season?


Well, his last season was such a disaster - by the standards of his
previous two seasons - mainly because he had become too cocky and
upped his training load by 10%. After a few good results early in the
season he felt too tired both physically and mentally by the time Tour
de Ski started. He even began to fall on a regular basis because he
lost concentration and wasn't really alert anymore.

This season he has backed off from such training madness - according
to national coach Jochen Behle, he's done 800 km less than last year -
and put less pressure on himself to perform well before Tour de Ski.
He also intends to skip the North American WC races in order to
concentrate on his main goal(s) in Liberec.

He won the pre-WC "training race" in Muonio. In Gällivare he had a
rather slippery pair of skis and in Kuusamo he didn't do too badly. In
La Clusaz he was already sick with flu and had to DNS the relay.
Maybe the evidence so far is misleading?

Anyway, he's had quite a few changes in the summer: he switched his
training base from Oberhof to Ruhbolding, he changed from Atomic to
Rossignol, moved into a new house and - last but not least - became
the proud father of a girl. Maybe it takes a few more races to make
things click together?

Anders


Thanks Anders, lets look forward to Tobias getting over is cod quickly
and coming back early in this season.
  #9  
Old December 9th 08, 01:04 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
highpeaksnordic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 118
Default New Finite Finish Structure Tool

On Dec 9, 7:38*am, Anders wrote:

(Talking of rillers, the hot favourite - used among others by the
Norwegian national team - is the RS riller,


Looks very much like the structure tool Jenex / V2 markets.

http://translate.google.com/translat...2522%26hl%3Den

He also says good glide consists
80% of ski choice, 18% of structure and 2% of wax, "although the
percentage can vary according to distance and snow conditions".)


This is an absolutely correct (but suprisingly obscure) statement -
more people should understand this. If the ski is not flexed
correctly for you and your style of skiing, there isn't a structure or
wax in the world that will help you go faster. My experience has been
that extreme conditions (warm air, wet snow for instance) will skew
the percentages higher for structure and wax, but only a few percent.

- Bob


  #10  
Old December 9th 08, 09:32 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
ADK Skier
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 137
Default New Finite Finish Structure Tool

On Dec 9, 7:38*am, Anders wrote:
On Dec 9, 2:48*am, ADK Skier wrote:

Wow!! Thank you for sharing this but I have really difficult time
understanding the information. What I was originally implying about
smooth glass like finishes was that if a ski base is metal scrapped
correctly the finish product should have a glass like smooth finish.
However I don't think this is what the skier wants to race on. Hence
the Finish Finite Structure tool from BNS I was referring to. If
possible could you help us understand what the tool you describe does.
Does it peel the base, structure, or do both.


The Primateria scrape is in fact a suite of three scrapes: rough or
ground scrape (which peels the base pretty much like or better than
the Kuzmin scrape), structure scrape (which gives as the name implies
structure) and a polish scrape (which will return and perfect the
smoothness of the contact surface "above the structure"). All
specially designed and manufactured with special technology from
special material. Sounds almost like the stuff they sell on daytime
TV, but there seems to be a lot of genuine enthusiasm out there for
the product.

I don't claim to understand half of what I've read (and I certainly
didn't even try to read the 42-page PDF) but the whole point seems to
be to get _as a necessary precondition for getting a good glide_ a
maximally smooth and blank contact surface quite regardless whether
you have a stonegrind or not and whether you put on base wax or not
and whether you put on glide wax or not.

However - and indeed as you, too, think above - this isn't the be all
and and all; you need and want a structure and this is what the set of
scrapes is said to achieve with remarkable ease and result. The
brochure gives several methods of using the three scrapes according to
the quality of the ski base (worn or not, fine stonegrind or not) and
the snow (wet or not) ranging from a once over with two scrapes to all
three including up to five times with the structure scrape. The polish
scrape can also be used to finish after using a riller.

(Talking of rillers, the hot favourite - used among others by the
Norwegian national team - is the RS riller, whose developer speaks
favourably of the Primateria scrapes. He also says good glide consists
80% of ski choice, 18% of structure and 2% of wax, "although the
percentage can vary according to distance and snow conditions".)

I'm not sure that any of this helps you, but if I can get open-minded
skiers to experiment (or at least make experiment-willing skiers aware
that there's something going on in Sweden), I suppose my posts in this
thread have served their purpose.

Anders


Anders thanks for youre follow up. It cleared many things up for me.
I'm going to check out how much these tools cost in US currency.
Thanks again for your time in explaining this. It's interesting seeing
new tools come out for base preparation.
 




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