If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
Please excuse me if this is posted multiple - server is acting weird.
----------- Joseph, I'm going to go nuts here 8-) (but I'm a real striding affectionado). Get some good quality, properly fitted striding skis asap and take a couple of pro. lessons as you prep for the Norske Birkie. It sounds like you're fit and athletic and really enjoy xc skiing in general. I think it will make a HUGE difference for a person like you, very, very quickly. It will not only pay off in that you will have 100X more fun on the Norske Birke, but for years to come. Regardless of your competative goals, you will have a night and day difference in fun. As for the effect of your inferior, ill-fitted skis: I don't think I'm exaggerating too much to say its like the difference between a poorly maintained, (e.g. shifts and rolls poorly) , poorly fitted, clunky Huffy bike compared to a good quality, well fitted racing bike. Then you could take another step from "good quality and well fitted" to "excellent quality and perfectly fitted" - a better and definitely noticable improvement in both biking and skiing. But that first step is huge, further steps are more subtle and of course expensive (but even for duffers like me, often worth it simply because its more fun). Sure you can have fun (sort of) on both the Huffy-grade vs. the better quality gear. Sure you can use both for fitness. But the difference in pleasure and effectiveness is huge. Here's my editorial comment: and athletic person like you will come to absolutely love striding when you get decent gear and technique, maybe even more than skating.. |
Ads |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
No pole striding would return the same results. The difference is the
muscles used and the relative proportions. Gene beorn wrote: Gene Goldenfeld wrote: From IOC's book Cross Country Skiing: Increased lactate production in skating probably due to use of upper body and greater leg muscle contractions. I usually ski with my HR monitor, and it almost always happens that at the same perceived intensity, my HR is 10-15 beats lower when I just skate without pushing by arms, if compared to the common technique (legs + arms). So, this is a personal confirmation of what you say. I also notice that during a xcountry training the average HR is generally much higher than during a road-bike training...I guess this is also related to the number of distinct muscles involved. -- beorn "You've got to learn to crawl before you learn to walk" Aerosmith (Amazing) |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
I'm dubious (or at least confused) about statements that,
IN GENERAL, skating produces higher heartrates than does classic skiing. Individual reports from most of us don't carry much weight in this respect. I can well see that a not completely trained individual would be more "uncomfortable" at a given heartrate doing some sport, than that same individual would be at the same heartrate doing his or her "own" sport. It happens to me all the time running and on the bike. But what does the earlier statement really mean?---higher heartrate at the same speed on the same terrain: surely not, since, as this thread pointed out, skating is about 10% faster, for the same person, under the same conditions (not too cold!), and with ideal equipment for both disciplines. I seriously doubt that a person like Becky Scott say, would have much different average heartrate over a 15km. race, same course, doing one classic and the other skating. Is there actual data on something like this? I'd be swayed by individual reports from someone like Nathan here, but not too many others. Actually measured lactic acid production (not "lactate production", especially since the above reference was to a female!) is another question, not the same, but not unrelated to average heartrate. But I doubt too many WC skiers get that done at the times in the middle of a race needed to make it meaningful. And I'm not disputing that it's generally possible to climb a hill with good racing technique in classic at a lower heartrate than skating (not saying anything about speed). That's a different question. Best, Peter |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
Peter, the book is readily available for you to read and look up the
studies for yourself. There was also the Soviet team study posted or referred to here years ago by Ralph Thornton in the Eagle River Nordic's newsletter. These studies have been done on WC skiers, as well as larger groups. I don't have difficulty with their findings and speculations (hypothesizing) because they seem obvious to me based on experience. Gene "Peter H." wrote: I'm dubious (or at least confused) about statements that, IN GENERAL, skating produces higher heartrates than does classic skiing. Individual reports from most of us don't carry much weight in this respect. I can well see that a not completely trained individual would be more "uncomfortable" at a given heartrate doing some sport, than that same individual would be at the same heartrate doing his or her "own" sport. It happens to me all the time running and on the bike. But what does the earlier statement really mean?---higher heartrate at the same speed on the same terrain: surely not, since, as this thread pointed out, skating is about 10% faster, for the same person, under the same conditions (not too cold!), and with ideal equipment for both disciplines. I seriously doubt that a person like Becky Scott say, would have much different average heartrate over a 15km. race, same course, doing one classic and the other skating. Is there actual data on something like this? I'd be swayed by individual reports from someone like Nathan here, but not too many others. Actually measured lactic acid production (not "lactate production", especially since the above reference was to a female!) is another question, not the same, but not unrelated to average heartrate. But I doubt too many WC skiers get that done at the times in the middle of a race needed to make it meaningful. And I'm not disputing that it's generally possible to climb a hill with good racing technique in classic at a lower heartrate than skating (not saying anything about speed). That's a different question. Best, Peter |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
Hi Gene, Thanks for the reply. You had referred to an
IOC book Cross Country Skiing. Google and Amazon gave me only a few possibilities, eliminating Yuri L. Hanin's stuff, all psychological I think, leaves Rusko @$45 Olympic Handbook of Sports Medicine IOC @$155 Endurance in Sport Neither looks exactly right, and I've already got too much on this kind of stuff! Is it either of those? Better yet, what exactly is the operational definition of a statement like (to quote myself and paraphrase others) "skating produces higher heartrates than classic skiing" and the same thing, with "lactic acid" substituted for "heartrates". Presumably the book and studies you have referred to will at least describe precisely the experiments carried out. Not trying to be argumentative, just really interested in anything along these lines---e.g. what does it say about my training when I notice nothing at all like this? Best, Peter |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
Peter H. wrote:
I seriously doubt that a person like Becky Scott say, would have much different average heartrate over a 15km. race, same course, doing one classic and the other skating. Is there actual data on something like this? I'd be swayed by individual reports from someone like Nathan here, but not too many others. I found this abstract: Millet GP, Boissiere D, Candau R. Energy cost of different skating techniques in cross-country skiing. J Sports Sci. 2003 Jan;21(1):3-11. http://makeashorterlink.com/?O16621C9C but unfortunately I don't have access to the full text article. Anyhow, authors report that different skating and poling techniques result in different HR and energy costs. I guess that something similar can also happen in a skating vs classic test. I agree when you say that for top class athletes it makes no difference which technique they use, as they will always push at their maximum...but I still think that different techniques and/or movements result in slightly different metabolic responses (that is, at the same perceived level of exertion, your HR and VO2 are higher/lower) -- beorn "You've got to learn to crawl before you learn to walk" Aerosmith (Amazing) |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
I agree Beorn, the key being the word "perceived". Surely
that scientific paper is just telling us what we know when we switch "gears", as the terrain, snow conditions, etc. change. But to simply say that skating gives a higher HR than classic seems pretty meaningless. A slightly injured runner does all his LSD training on the track running, and all his intensity training on the same track racewalking, in which he has become proficient, to help recover from the injury. If I was his coach and noticed (surprise, surprise!) his HR was higher walking than running, hopefully no reputable journal would publish my paper entitled: "Walking causes higher heartrate than running". Best, Peter |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
Peter H. wrote: Hi Joseph, From your recent posts, I really think that, if you possibly can, you should get a pair of classic skis that fit you well before doing the Birken. After all, skis are pretty inexpensive in Norway relative to the general cost-of-living there, and you've invested lots of time and other resources into doing that event, which, in my opinion, is simply THE major long-distance nordic ski event for the masses. (Forget the World Masters---at the top end, the standards are higher in the Birken!) Since you twisted my arm, I took the day off drove 2 hours to Oslo and went to Oslo Sportslager. That's a great place. Always a line. You have to take a number. Only about 12 people in front of me. After waiting for 45 minutes, a very knoledgable young man helped me sort out my needs. He sent one guy to poke through all the 210's they ahd to find som estiff ones while he and I concentrated on boots. They had at least 5 different boots all the way up to size 50! I have never had a selection of shoes to choose from before. It was heaven. I was going to get some racing boots, but the Alpina SP 15 fit the best and are NNN which suits my other skis and roller skis, etc. Then on to poles. I have some Swix CT7's that get bent every time I slip backward on a climb. We settled on some heavy Excel carbon poles. He was afraid lightweight carbon might snap, but heavy carbon was the thing. In the meantime th eother guy fished out 6 pairs of skis, and I tried them on the fitting platform, and we found a set of Madshus X3 that suit me perfectly. I then went around the corner and had lunch at a Lebanese restaurant while they mounted the bindings and prepped the sole. I then drove up to Hollmekollen and had a wonderful 2 hour ski. Oslo has different terrain than I am used to (long easy climbs, vs short steep ones) so it was difficult for me to say for sure how much, but there is no doubt there is a HUGE difference. Huge. I'll see what happens tommorrow on my home turf! Joseph |
#29
|
|||
|
|||
The first. I also note that the German women skiers interviewed
pre-season talked about training mainly in classic style as better for endurance. Gene "Peter H." wrote: Hi Gene, Thanks for the reply. You had referred to an IOC book Cross Country Skiing. Google and Amazon gave me only a few possibilities, eliminating Yuri L. Hanin's stuff, all psychological I think, leaves Rusko @$45 Olympic Handbook of Sports Medicine IOC @$155 Endurance in Sport Neither looks exactly right, and I've already got too much on this kind of stuff! Is it either of those? Better yet, what exactly is the operational definition of a statement like (to quote myself and paraphrase others) "skating produces higher heartrates than classic skiing" and the same thing, with "lactic acid" substituted for "heartrates". Presumably the book and studies you have referred to will at least describe precisely the experiments carried out. Not trying to be argumentative, just really interested in anything along these lines---e.g. what does it say about my training when I notice nothing at all like this? Best, Peter |
#30
|
|||
|
|||
Hi Beorn,
I had time to look at that abstract finally. Though I find it novel to see this VO2max/mean speed, that's just my ignorance of the subject perhaps. Maybe something like that holds the key to my earlier questions. But I tend to be skeptical about some kinds of science. I'll have to look in a textbook to answer questions like: Why not VO2max/ (mean speed)^2? Anyway, one thing that looks completely wrong in that abstract leads me to be even more skeptical of this particular study. To quote: "The aerobic energy cost (VO2/mean speed) and heart rate were higher (P 0.05) in the one-skate than in the offset condition. This may be explained by the greater .... use of the upper body .....in the offset condition." Surely everybody who skates can tell that 1-skate uses more upper body and offset uses more legs! Interesting that the French use what I thought was Canuck terminology. For USians who might have forgotten, "offset" is V1 and "1-skate" is V2. (Don't mean to be patronizing, but I find it easy to forget the US terminology.) Off to CSM and Keskinada, so I'll have to drop out of this for 10 days. Best, Peter beorn wrote: Peter H. wrote: I seriously doubt that a person like Becky Scott say, would have much different average heartrate over a 15km. race, same course, doing one classic and the other skating. Is there actual data on something like this? I'd be swayed by individual reports from someone like Nathan here, but not too many others. I found this abstract: Millet GP, Boissiere D, Candau R. Energy cost of different skating techniques in cross-country skiing. J Sports Sci. 2003 Jan;21(1):3-11. http://makeashorterlink.com/?O16621C9C but unfortunately I don't have access to the full text article. Anyhow, authors report that different skating and poling techniques result in different HR and energy costs. I guess that something similar can also happen in a skating vs classic test. I agree when you say that for top class athletes it makes no difference which technique they use, as they will always push at their maximum...but I still think that different techniques and/or movements result in slightly different metabolic responses (that is, at the same perceived level of exertion, your HR and VO2 are higher/lower) -- beorn "You've got to learn to crawl before you learn to walk" Aerosmith (Amazing) |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Wood skis in Canadian Birkebeiner | David Dermott | Nordic Skiing | 3 | January 17th 06 12:50 PM |
Preparation and race strategy - 100km freestyle | BarryT | Nordic Skiing | 0 | January 10th 05 06:03 PM |
Who's Gained the Most Weight Since the American Birkebeiner? | Jay Tegeder | Nordic Skiing | 8 | April 18th 04 05:35 PM |
Best American Birkebeiner Wax Combinations | Jay Tegeder | Nordic Skiing | 11 | March 1st 04 02:33 AM |