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Birkebeiner strategy?



 
 
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  #21  
Old February 8th 06, 07:14 PM
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Please excuse me if this is posted multiple - server is acting weird.
-----------

Joseph, I'm going to go nuts here 8-) (but I'm a real striding
affectionado).

Get some good quality, properly fitted striding skis asap and take a
couple of pro. lessons as you prep for the Norske Birkie. It sounds
like you're fit and athletic and really enjoy xc skiing in general. I
think it will make a HUGE difference for a person like you, very, very
quickly. It will not only pay off in that you will have 100X more fun
on the Norske Birke, but for years to come. Regardless of your
competative goals, you will have a night and day difference in fun.

As for the effect of your inferior, ill-fitted skis: I don't think I'm
exaggerating too much to say its like the difference between a poorly
maintained, (e.g. shifts and rolls poorly) , poorly fitted, clunky
Huffy bike compared to a good quality, well fitted racing bike. Then
you could take another step from "good quality and well fitted" to
"excellent quality and perfectly fitted" - a better and definitely
noticable improvement in both biking and skiing. But that first step
is huge, further steps are more subtle and of course expensive (but
even for duffers like me, often worth it simply because its more fun).

Sure you can have fun (sort of) on both the Huffy-grade vs. the better
quality gear. Sure you can use both for fitness. But the difference in
pleasure and effectiveness is huge.

Here's my editorial comment: and athletic person like you will come to
absolutely love striding when you get decent gear and technique, maybe
even more than skating..

Ads
  #22  
Old February 9th 06, 02:39 AM
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No pole striding would return the same results. The difference is the
muscles used and the relative proportions.

Gene

beorn wrote:

Gene Goldenfeld wrote:

From IOC's book Cross Country Skiing: Increased lactate production
in skating probably due to use of upper body and greater leg muscle
contractions.


I usually ski with my HR monitor, and it almost always happens that
at the same perceived intensity, my HR is 10-15 beats lower when I
just skate without pushing by arms, if compared to the common
technique (legs
+ arms).
So, this is a personal confirmation of what you say.
I also notice that during a xcountry training the average HR is
generally much higher than during a road-bike training...I guess this
is also related to the number of distinct muscles involved.

--
beorn
"You've got to learn to crawl
before you learn to walk"
Aerosmith (Amazing)

  #23  
Old February 9th 06, 12:12 PM
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I'm dubious (or at least confused) about statements that,
IN GENERAL, skating produces higher heartrates than
does classic skiing. Individual reports from most of us
don't carry much weight in this respect. I can well see that
a not completely trained individual would be more "uncomfortable"
at a given heartrate doing some sport, than that same individual
would be at the same heartrate doing his or her "own" sport.
It happens to me all the time running and on the bike.

But what does the earlier statement really mean?---higher heartrate
at the same speed on the same terrain: surely not, since,
as this thread pointed out, skating is about 10% faster,
for the same person, under the same conditions
(not too cold!),
and with ideal equipment for both disciplines.

I seriously doubt that a person like Becky Scott say, would have
much different average heartrate over a 15km. race, same course,
doing one classic and the other skating. Is there actual data on
something like this? I'd be swayed by individual reports
from someone like Nathan here,
but not too many others.

Actually measured lactic acid production
(not "lactate production", especially
since the above reference was to a female!)
is another question, not the same,
but not unrelated to average heartrate. But
I doubt too many WC skiers get that done at the times
in the middle of a race needed to make it meaningful.

And I'm not disputing that it's generally possible to
climb a hill with good racing technique in classic
at a lower heartrate than skating (not saying anything
about speed). That's a different question.

Best, Peter

  #24  
Old February 9th 06, 01:39 PM
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Peter, the book is readily available for you to read and look up the
studies for yourself. There was also the Soviet team study posted
or referred to here years ago by Ralph Thornton in the Eagle River
Nordic's newsletter. These studies have been done on WC skiers, as well
as larger groups. I don't have difficulty with their findings and
speculations (hypothesizing) because they seem obvious to me based on
experience.

Gene

"Peter H." wrote:

I'm dubious (or at least confused) about statements that,
IN GENERAL, skating produces higher heartrates than
does classic skiing. Individual reports from most of us
don't carry much weight in this respect. I can well see that
a not completely trained individual would be more "uncomfortable"
at a given heartrate doing some sport, than that same individual
would be at the same heartrate doing his or her "own" sport.
It happens to me all the time running and on the bike.

But what does the earlier statement really mean?---higher heartrate
at the same speed on the same terrain: surely not, since,
as this thread pointed out, skating is about 10% faster,
for the same person, under the same conditions
(not too cold!),
and with ideal equipment for both disciplines.

I seriously doubt that a person like Becky Scott say, would have
much different average heartrate over a 15km. race, same course,
doing one classic and the other skating. Is there actual data on
something like this? I'd be swayed by individual reports
from someone like Nathan here,
but not too many others.

Actually measured lactic acid production
(not "lactate production", especially
since the above reference was to a female!)
is another question, not the same,
but not unrelated to average heartrate. But
I doubt too many WC skiers get that done at the times
in the middle of a race needed to make it meaningful.

And I'm not disputing that it's generally possible to
climb a hill with good racing technique in classic
at a lower heartrate than skating (not saying anything
about speed). That's a different question.

Best, Peter

  #25  
Old February 9th 06, 02:45 PM
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Hi Gene, Thanks for the reply. You had referred to an
IOC book Cross Country Skiing. Google and Amazon
gave me only a few possibilities, eliminating Yuri L. Hanin's
stuff, all psychological I think, leaves

Rusko @$45 Olympic Handbook of Sports Medicine

IOC @$155 Endurance in Sport

Neither looks exactly right, and I've already got too much
on this kind of stuff! Is it either of those?


Better yet, what exactly is the operational definition of
a statement like (to quote myself and paraphrase others)
"skating produces higher heartrates than classic skiing"
and the same thing, with
"lactic acid" substituted for "heartrates".
Presumably the book and studies you have referred to
will at least describe precisely the experiments carried out.

Not trying to be argumentative, just really interested in
anything along these lines---e.g. what does it say about
my training when I notice nothing at all like this?

Best, Peter

  #26  
Old February 9th 06, 03:11 PM
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Peter H. wrote:

I seriously doubt that a person like Becky Scott say, would have
much different average heartrate over a 15km. race, same course,
doing one classic and the other skating. Is there actual data on
something like this? I'd be swayed by individual reports
from someone like Nathan here,
but not too many others.


I found this abstract:

Millet GP, Boissiere D, Candau R.
Energy cost of different skating techniques in cross-country skiing.
J Sports Sci. 2003 Jan;21(1):3-11.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?O16621C9C

but unfortunately I don't have access to the full text article.
Anyhow, authors report that different skating and poling techniques
result in different HR and energy costs.
I guess that something similar can also happen in a skating vs classic test.

I agree when you say that for top class athletes it makes no difference
which technique they use, as they will always push at their
maximum...but I still think that different techniques and/or movements
result in slightly different metabolic responses (that is, at the same
perceived level of exertion, your HR and VO2 are higher/lower)

--
beorn
"You've got to learn to crawl
before you learn to walk"
Aerosmith (Amazing)
  #27  
Old February 9th 06, 06:30 PM
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I agree Beorn, the key being the word "perceived". Surely
that scientific paper is just telling us what we know when
we switch "gears", as the terrain, snow conditions, etc.
change. But to simply say that skating gives a higher HR
than classic seems pretty meaningless.

A slightly injured runner does all his LSD training on the
track running, and all his intensity training on the same
track racewalking, in which he has become proficient,
to help recover from the injury. If I was his coach
and noticed (surprise, surprise!) his HR was higher walking
than running, hopefully no reputable journal would publish
my paper entitled: "Walking causes higher heartrate than running".

Best, Peter

  #28  
Old February 9th 06, 08:30 PM
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Peter H. wrote:
Hi Joseph,

From your recent posts, I really think that, if you possibly

can, you should get a pair of classic skis that fit you well
before doing the Birken. After all, skis are pretty inexpensive
in Norway relative to the general cost-of-living there, and you've
invested lots of time and other resources into doing that event,
which, in my opinion, is simply THE major long-distance nordic
ski event for the masses. (Forget the World Masters---at the top
end, the standards are higher in the Birken!)


Since you twisted my arm, I took the day off drove 2 hours to Oslo and
went to Oslo Sportslager. That's a great place. Always a line. You have
to take a number. Only about 12 people in front of me. After waiting
for 45 minutes, a very knoledgable young man helped me sort out my
needs. He sent one guy to poke through all the 210's they ahd to find
som estiff ones while he and I concentrated on boots. They had at least
5 different boots all the way up to size 50! I have never had a
selection of shoes to choose from before. It was heaven. I was going to
get some racing boots, but the Alpina SP 15 fit the best and are NNN
which suits my other skis and roller skis, etc. Then on to poles. I
have some Swix CT7's that get bent every time I slip backward on a
climb. We settled on some heavy Excel carbon poles. He was afraid
lightweight carbon might snap, but heavy carbon was the thing. In the
meantime th eother guy fished out 6 pairs of skis, and I tried them on
the fitting platform, and we found a set of Madshus X3 that suit me
perfectly. I then went around the corner and had lunch at a Lebanese
restaurant while they mounted the bindings and prepped the sole.

I then drove up to Hollmekollen and had a wonderful 2 hour ski.

Oslo has different terrain than I am used to (long easy climbs, vs
short steep ones) so it was difficult for me to say for sure how much,
but there is no doubt there is a HUGE difference. Huge. I'll see what
happens tommorrow on my home turf!

Joseph

  #29  
Old February 10th 06, 12:57 AM
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The first. I also note that the German women skiers interviewed
pre-season talked about training mainly in classic style as better for
endurance.

Gene

"Peter H." wrote:

Hi Gene, Thanks for the reply. You had referred to an
IOC book Cross Country Skiing. Google and Amazon
gave me only a few possibilities, eliminating Yuri L. Hanin's
stuff, all psychological I think, leaves

Rusko @$45 Olympic Handbook of Sports Medicine

IOC @$155 Endurance in Sport

Neither looks exactly right, and I've already got too much
on this kind of stuff! Is it either of those?


Better yet, what exactly is the operational definition of
a statement like (to quote myself and paraphrase others)
"skating produces higher heartrates than classic skiing"
and the same thing, with
"lactic acid" substituted for "heartrates".
Presumably the book and studies you have referred to
will at least describe precisely the experiments carried out.

Not trying to be argumentative, just really interested in
anything along these lines---e.g. what does it say about
my training when I notice nothing at all like this?

Best, Peter

  #30  
Old February 10th 06, 01:32 AM
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Hi Beorn,

I had time to look at that abstract finally. Though I find it
novel to see this VO2max/mean speed, that's just my
ignorance of the subject perhaps. Maybe something like
that holds the key to my earlier questions. But I tend to
be skeptical about some kinds of science. I'll have to look
in a textbook to answer questions like: Why not VO2max/ (mean speed)^2?

Anyway, one thing that looks completely wrong in that abstract
leads me to be even more skeptical of this particular study.
To quote:

"The aerobic energy cost (VO2/mean speed) and heart rate
were higher (P 0.05) in the one-skate than in the offset condition.
This may be explained by the greater .... use of the upper body
.....in the offset condition."

Surely everybody who skates can tell that 1-skate uses more
upper body and offset uses more legs!

Interesting that the French
use what I thought was Canuck terminology.
For USians who might have forgotten,
"offset" is V1 and "1-skate" is V2.
(Don't mean to be patronizing,
but I find it easy to forget the US terminology.)

Off to CSM and Keskinada, so I'll
have to drop out of this for 10 days.

Best, Peter



beorn wrote:
Peter H. wrote:

I seriously doubt that a person like Becky Scott say, would have
much different average heartrate over a 15km. race, same course,
doing one classic and the other skating. Is there actual data on
something like this? I'd be swayed by individual reports
from someone like Nathan here,
but not too many others.


I found this abstract:

Millet GP, Boissiere D, Candau R.
Energy cost of different skating techniques in cross-country skiing.
J Sports Sci. 2003 Jan;21(1):3-11.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?O16621C9C

but unfortunately I don't have access to the full text article.
Anyhow, authors report that different skating and poling techniques
result in different HR and energy costs.
I guess that something similar can also happen in a skating vs classic test.

I agree when you say that for top class athletes it makes no difference
which technique they use, as they will always push at their
maximum...but I still think that different techniques and/or movements
result in slightly different metabolic responses (that is, at the same
perceived level of exertion, your HR and VO2 are higher/lower)

--
beorn
"You've got to learn to crawl
before you learn to walk"
Aerosmith (Amazing)


 




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