Sad & a bit OT; was Fish Sauce. Was:Talcum Powder for Klister Removal

A friend of mine died suddenly of congestive heart
failure last summer just 5 days short of his 40th
birthday. He was an "ex-athlete" like many of us, and
was used to being able to get away with pretty hard
workouts just on the "capital" he had invested in his
body over the years. Unexplained fatigue was passed
over as "way busy, family duties are keeping me from
training like I should, etc." His autopsy revealed
that his coronary artieries were about 98% blocked,
and just couldn't supply the demand for the 4 hr
mountain bike ride in the heat (which is when he
died).

After that, I took a look at my lifestyle, training
methods and family history (high blood pressure and
high cholesterol), and decided for a start to go in
and get a cardiac stress test. Turned out that I was
OK. It might have been just a little bit of a
"hypochondriac" overreaction, but on the other hand,
it's good to know that I can continue to train hard
and do the things I love to do without having to worry
about my heart, and if nothing else, it's a good
baseline for the future.

As healthy people, we often don't go in to see a
doctor unless parts are falling off. If you feel that
you might be at risk, please consider going in and
getting a physical.

Sunday sermon over. take care everyone-
Chris C
SLC

--- "Edward Dike, III"
wrote:

"Gary Jacobson"
wrote in
message
...
|
| "David Dermott"
wrote in message
|

...
| On Sun, 21 Mar 2004, taywood wrote:
|
|
| I use flour and it works quite well for
removing klister.
| Dust the flour on the klistered part of the
ski. Gently rub it in.
| The resulted flour-klister mix scrapes off very
easily.
|
| Then take the klister/flour mixure and slowly
introduce it into a pan with
| melted butter. Just as it begins to bubble turn
the heat down. Now remove
| the Lutefisk from the oven, and pour the sauce
over the fish at the
table.
| Your guests will never know that your faux
gooseberry sauce is actually
| yesterday's red floro klister.
|
| Seems to me that my wife does this kind of stuff
all the time.
|
| Gary Jacobson
| Rosendale, NY



The above 'recipe' reminds me of something I just
read:


http://us.cnn.com/2004/US/West/03/20/obit.maxwell.ap/


The second well known 50-something athelete in about
as many months...
I don't like it.
Regards to the family and friends.

ED3... who is 51









__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html

Here's an article from the New York Times. Interesting on many fronts.
Remember (and I'm talking to myself too), that the outlayers who die at a
young age despite a healthy life style, and those people that live long
lives despite poor habits are not representative of what happens to most of
us. We just have those stuck in our minds. And remember too, that hard
exersice is stressfull, and maybe "bad" in so far as oxidation which is
thought among some researchers to be the real cause of heart disease and
cancer.
Here's the article:

This article was in today's NYTimes. It's a must read about heart attack
prevention.
L


March 21, 2004
New Studies Cast Doubt on Artery-Opening Operations
By GINA KOLATA

new and emerging understanding of how heart attacks occur indicates that
increasingly popular aggressive treatments may be doing little or nothing to
prevent them.

The artery-opening methods, like bypass surgery and stents, the widely used
wire cages that hold plaque against an artery wall, can alleviate crushing
chest pain. Stents can also rescue someone in the midst of a heart attack by
destroying an obstruction and holding the closed artery open.

But the new model of heart disease shows that the vast majority of heart
attacks do not originate with obstructions that narrow arteries.

Instead, recent and continuing studies show that a more powerful way to
prevent heart attacks in patients at high risk is to adhere rigorously to
what can seem like boring old advice - giving up smoking, for example, and
taking drugs to get blood pressure under control, drive cholesterol levels
down and prevent blood clotting.

Researchers estimate that just one of those tactics, lowering cholesterol to
what guidelines suggest, can reduce the risk of heart attack by a third but
is followed by only 20 percent of heart patients.

"It's amazing and it's completely backwards in terms of prioritization,"
said Dr. David Brown, an interventional cardiologist at Beth Israel Medical
Center in New York.

Heart experts say they understand why the disconnect occurred: they, too, at
first found it hard to believe what research was telling them. For years,
they were wedded to the wrong model of heart disease.

"There has been a culture in cardiology that the narrowings were the problem
and that if you fix them the patient does better," said Dr. David Waters, a
cardiologist at the University of California at San Francisco.

The old idea was this: Coronary disease is akin to sludge building up in a
pipe. Plaque accumulates slowly, over decades, and once it is there it is
pretty much there for good. Every year, the narrowing grows more severe
until one day no blood can get through and the patient has a heart attack.
Bypass surgery or angioplasty - opening arteries by pushing plaque back with
a tiny balloon and then, often, holding it there with a stent - can open up
a narrowed artery before it closes completely. And so, it was assumed, heart
attacks could be averted.

But, researchers say, most heart attacks do not occur because an artery is
narrowed by plaque. Instead, they say, heart attacks occur when an area of
plaque bursts, a clot forms over the area and blood flow is abruptly
blocked. In 75 to 80 percent of cases, the plaque that erupts was not
obstructing an artery and would not be stented or bypassed. The dangerous
plaque is soft and fragile, produces no symptoms and would not be seen as an
obstruction to blood flow.

That is why, heart experts say, so many heart attacks are unexpected - a
person will be out jogging one day, feeling fine, and struck with a heart
attack the next. If a narrowed artery were the culprit, exercise would have
caused severe chest pain.

Heart patients may have hundreds of vulnerable plaques, so preventing heart
attacks means going after all their arteries, not one narrowed section, by
attacking the disease itself. That is what happens when patients take drugs
to aggressively lower their cholesterol levels, to get their blood pressure
under control and to prevent blood clots.

Yet, researchers say, old notions persist.

"There is just this embedded belief that fixing an artery is a good thing,"
said Dr. Eric Topol, an interventional cardiologist at the Cleveland Clinic
in Ohio.

In particular, Dr. Topol said, more and more people with no symptoms are now
getting stents. According to an analysis by Merrill Lynch, based on sales
figures, there will be more than a million stent operations this year,
nearly double the number performed five years ago.

Some doctors still adhere to the old model. Others say that they know it no
longer holds but that they sometimes end up opening blocked arteries anyway,
even when patients have no symptoms.

Dr. David Hillis, an interventional cardiologist at the University of Texas
Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas, explained: "If you're an invasive
cardiologist and Joe Smith, the local internist, is sending you patients,
and if you tell them they don't need the procedure, pretty soon Joe Smith
doesn't send patients anymore. Sometimes you can talk yourself into doing it
even though in your heart of hearts you don't think it's right."

Dr. Topol said a patient typically goes to a cardiologist with a vague
complaint like indigestion or shortness of breath, or because a scan of the
heart indicated calcium deposits - a sign of atherosclerosis, or buildup of
plaque. The cardiologist puts the patient in the cardiac catheterization
room, examining the arteries with an angiogram. Since most people who are
middle-aged and older have atherosclerosis, the angiogram will more often
than not show a narrowing. Inevitably, the patient gets a stent.

"It's this train where you can't get off at any station along the way," Dr.
Topol said. "Once you get on the train, you're getting the stents. Once you
get in the cath lab, it's pretty likely that something will get done."

One reason for the enthusiastic opening of blocked arteries is that it feels
like the right thing to do, Dr. Hillis said. "I think it is ingrained in the
American psyche that the worth of medical care is directly related to how
aggressive it is," he said. "Americans want a full-court press."

Dr. Hillis said he tried to explain the evidence to patients, to little
avail. "You end up reaching a level of frustration," he said. "I think they
have talked to someone along the line who convinced them that this procedure
will save their life. They are told if you don't have it done you are,
quote, a walking time bomb."

Researchers are also finding that plaque, and heart attack risk, can change
very quickly - within a month, according to a recent study - by something as
simple as intense cholesterol lowering.

"The results are now snowballing," said Dr. Peter Libby of Harvard Medical
School. "The disease is more mutable than we had thought."

The changing picture of what works to prevent heart attacks, and why,
emerged only after years of research that was initially met with disbelief.

Early attempts to show that opening a narrowed artery saves lives or
prevents heart attacks were unsuccessful. The only exception was bypass
surgery, which was found to extend the lives of some patients with severe
illness but not to prevent heart attacks. It is unclear why those patients
lived longer; some think the treatment prevented their heart rhythms from
going awry, while others say that the detour created by a bypass might be
giving blood an alternate route when a clot formed somewhere else in the
artery.

Some early studies indicated what was really happening, but were widely
dismissed. As long ago as 1986, Dr. Greg Brown of the University of
Washington at Seattle published a paper showing that heart attacks occurred
in areas of coronary arteries where there was too little plaque to be
stented or bypassed. Many cardiologists derided him.

Around the same time, Dr. Steven Nissen of the Cleveland Clinic started
looking directly at patients' coronary arteries with a miniature ultrasound
camera that he threaded into blood vessels. He found that the arteries were
riddled with plaque, but almost none of it was obstructing blood vessels.
Soon he began proposing that the problem was not the plaque that produced
narrowings but the hundreds of other areas that were ready to burst.
Cardiologists were skeptical.

In 1999, Dr. Waters of the University of California got a similar reaction
to his study of patients who had been referred for angioplasty, although
they did not have severe symptoms like chest pain. The patients were
randomly assigned to angioplasty followed by a doctor's usual care, or to
aggressive cholesterol-lowering drugs but no angioplasty. The patients whose
cholesterol was aggressively lowered had fewer heart attacks and fewer
hospitalizations for sudden onset of chest pain.

The study "caused an uproar," Dr. Waters said. "We were saying that
atherosclerosis is a systemic disease. It occurs throughout all the coronary
arteries. If you fix one segment, a year later it will be another segment
that pops and gives you a heart attack, so systemic therapy, with statins or
antiplatelet drugs, has the potential to do a lot more." But, he added,
"there is a tradition in cardiology that doesn't want to hear that."

Even more disquieting, Dr. Topol said, is that stenting can actually cause
minor heart attacks in about 4 percent of patients. That can add up to a lot
of people suffering heart damage from a procedure meant to prevent it.

"It has not been a welcome thought," Dr. Topol said.

Stent makers say they do not mislead doctors or patients. Their new stents,
coated with drugs to prevent scar tissue from growing back in the immediate
area, are increasingly popular among cardiologists, and sales are exploding.
But there is not yet any evidence that they change the course of heart
disease.

"It's really not about preventing heart attacks per se," said Paul
LaViolette, a senior vice president at Boston Scientific, a stent
manufacturer. "The obvious purpose of the procedure is palliation and
symptom relief. It's a quality-of-life gain."



Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company | Home | Privacy Policy | Search |
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"Chris Cline" wrote in message
o.com...
A friend of mine died suddenly of congestive heart
failure last summer just 5 days short of his 40th
birthday. He was an "ex-athlete" like many of us, and
was used to being able to get away with pretty hard
workouts just on the "capital" he had invested in his
body over the years. Unexplained fatigue was passed
over as "way busy, family duties are keeping me from
training like I should, etc." His autopsy revealed
that his coronary artieries were about 98% blocked,
and just couldn't supply the demand for the 4 hr
mountain bike ride in the heat (which is when he
died).

After that, I took a look at my lifestyle, training
methods and family history (high blood pressure and
high cholesterol), and decided for a start to go in
and get a cardiac stress test. Turned out that I was
OK. It might have been just a little bit of a
"hypochondriac" overreaction, but on the other hand,
it's good to know that I can continue to train hard
and do the things I love to do without having to worry
about my heart, and if nothing else, it's a good
baseline for the future.

As healthy people, we often don't go in to see a
doctor unless parts are falling off. If you feel that
you might be at risk, please consider going in and
getting a physical.

Sunday sermon over. take care everyone-
Chris C
SLC

--- "Edward Dike, III"
wrote:

"Gary Jacobson"
wrote in
message
...
|
| "David Dermott"
wrote in message
|

...
| On Sun, 21 Mar 2004, taywood wrote:
|
|
| I use flour and it works quite well for
removing klister.
| Dust the flour on the klistered part of the
ski. Gently rub it in.
| The resulted flour-klister mix scrapes off very
easily.
|
| Then take the klister/flour mixure and slowly
introduce it into a pan with
| melted butter. Just as it begins to bubble turn
the heat down. Now remove
| the Lutefisk from the oven, and pour the sauce
over the fish at the
table.
| Your guests will never know that your faux
gooseberry sauce is actually
| yesterday's red floro klister.
|
| Seems to me that my wife does this kind of stuff
all the time.
|
| Gary Jacobson
| Rosendale, NY



The above 'recipe' reminds me of something I just
read:


http://us.cnn.com/2004/US/West/03/20/obit.maxwell.ap/


The second well known 50-something athelete in about
as many months...
I don't like it.
Regards to the family and friends.

ED3... who is 51









__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html

Thanks Chris...
top that off with this...

Brian Maxwell, Powerbar founder dies of heart attack at age 51 and he was
and endurance athlete through and through...
http://us.cnn.com/2004/US/West/03/20....ap/index.html

My father had a triple bypass and massive heart attack at age 42 (I'm now
38) so I know what you mean about beeing a little scared...

take care of yourself everyone...

JK

"Chris Cline" wrote in message
o.com...
A friend of mine died suddenly of congestive heart
failure last summer just 5 days short of his 40th
birthday. He was an "ex-athlete" like many of us, and
was used to being able to get away with pretty hard
workouts just on the "capital" he had invested in his
body over the years. Unexplained fatigue was passed
over as "way busy, family duties are keeping me from
training like I should, etc." His autopsy revealed
that his coronary artieries were about 98% blocked,
and just couldn't supply the demand for the 4 hr
mountain bike ride in the heat (which is when he
died).

After that, I took a look at my lifestyle, training
methods and family history (high blood pressure and
high cholesterol), and decided for a start to go in
and get a cardiac stress test. Turned out that I was
OK. It might have been just a little bit of a
"hypochondriac" overreaction, but on the other hand,
it's good to know that I can continue to train hard
and do the things I love to do without having to worry
about my heart, and if nothing else, it's a good
baseline for the future.

As healthy people, we often don't go in to see a
doctor unless parts are falling off. If you feel that
you might be at risk, please consider going in and
getting a physical.

Sunday sermon over. take care everyone-
Chris C
SLC

--- "Edward Dike, III"
wrote:

"Gary Jacobson"
wrote in
message
...
|
| "David Dermott"
wrote in message
|

...
| On Sun, 21 Mar 2004, taywood wrote:
|
|
| I use flour and it works quite well for
removing klister.
| Dust the flour on the klistered part of the
ski. Gently rub it in.
| The resulted flour-klister mix scrapes off very
easily.
|
| Then take the klister/flour mixure and slowly
introduce it into a pan with
| melted butter. Just as it begins to bubble turn
the heat down. Now remove
| the Lutefisk from the oven, and pour the sauce
over the fish at the
table.
| Your guests will never know that your faux
gooseberry sauce is actually
| yesterday's red floro klister.
|
| Seems to me that my wife does this kind of stuff
all the time.
|
| Gary Jacobson
| Rosendale, NY



The above 'recipe' reminds me of something I just
read:


http://us.cnn.com/2004/US/West/03/20/obit.maxwell.ap/


The second well known 50-something athelete in about
as many months...
I don't like it.
Regards to the family and friends.

ED3... who is 51









__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html

"Gary Jacobson" wrote in message . ..

(...) And remember too, that hard exersice is stressfull, and maybe "bad"
in so far as oxidation which is thought among some researchers to be the
real cause of heart disease and cancer.

Since I, too, carry a genetic burden which puts me at an
increased risk here (and since I am my own Number One
Favourite Guy...) I´ve figured out that cosuming plenty
of flavonoids (which function as antioxidants) especially
after training is a good thing.

There´s also some research by Magnus Nylander, which is
at least by one recovery drink manufacturer interpreted
as indicating that zinc, copper, magnesium and selenium
together with a source of SOD(SuperOxideDismutase what-
ever that may be)-enzyme taken immediately after training
will help the body´s own antioxidant system to deal with
the free radicals released by the stress induced during
hard exercise.

(The source in the product is pollen extract; "Polbax" is
a Swedish product.)


Anders

32 degrees wrote:

Thanks Chris...
top that off with this...

Brian Maxwell, Powerbar founder dies of heart attack at age 51 and he was
and endurance athlete through and through...
http://us.cnn.com/2004/US/West/03/20....ap/index.html

My father had a triple bypass and massive heart attack at age 42 (I'm now
38) so I know what you mean about beeing a little scared...

take care of yourself everyone...

Indeed.

I'm 46, and I started cholesterol medications last year. Not because it
was worryingly high, just a little bit over the preferred range.

However, my father and both my grandfathers had their first heart attack
before they were 60, my father got a triple bypass, while both
grandfathers died not too long after.

The good news is that my father had been very active in orienteering all
his life, the doctors told him that this had resulted in improved blood
supply to the heart in the form of smallers channels between the areas
supplied by the main arteries. Without this, he'd have been on the heart
transplant list, now he recovered almost completely.

He's now 71, and he keeps winning at least a couple of Men 70+
competitions every year. :-)

Terje

--
-
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"