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Blood volume?



 
 
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  #11  
Old February 5th 07, 12:50 AM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Peter H.
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Posts: 38
Default Improving longer distance?

On Feb 4, 5:24 pm, "Gary Jacobson" wrote:
"Ed Miller" wrote in message


I do fairly well in shorter races but when I get much over an hour I
fatigue, (esp legs) and my technique suffers,


Can't do much this year except to ski at low heart rates for 2 to 3 times
the length of you race distance.


It may, as Gary said, be getting the right training. But if you're
talking
about 3 or 4 hour races, it's not so easy to train double or triple
the length. Two little things in the races themselves which I have
needed to learn the hard way, and which have made a noticeable
difference
(however mediocre my results are!) :

(i) Start at the pace you can maintain for the duration, not way
faster, as
it's easy to be tempted into;

(ii) Get some replacement calories into yourself in enough quantity
during
the race---when it's over 2.5 hours, liquid stuff (Gatorade, etc.) is
not
adequate for me; the gels are, esp. that Hammergel stuff. You can suck
that down from a small flask they provide. I tie one onto an old bib
ribbon with
duct tape, and hang it around my neck and under the bib. When it's
cold, make it
about 25% liquid so it's not too thick to drain out easily.

Best, Peter

Ads
  #12  
Old February 5th 07, 01:32 AM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Ken Roberts
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Posts: 243
Default Improving longer distance?

Something I've been working on this year is how to train for performances of
8 hours or more. So I'd be glad for some ideas about that.

Lots of the ideas I've been trying fall into the two categories given by
Peter H:

(i) Start at the pace you can maintain for the duration


Seems pretty clear that it's important to stay away from significant acid
build-up, which for me often comes from trying to maintain too much speed up
a moderate-length hill. Also to stay away from peak-force loads on the
muscles -- like taking too long a stride up a hill.

(ii) Get some replacement calories into yourself in enough quantity


Lots of the talk on race performance limiters is about lactic acid. I'm
coming to think that for longer performances running low on readily
available _fuel_ becomes a key limiter. Part of the answer to this is surely
ingesting calories during the event, but I've heard there are limits on how
fast you absorb it.

The other approach is to try to increase the _availability_ of stored
fuel -- get more glycogen (and fatty acids) stored in (or near?) the muscle
cells. The short-term idea (which I haven't tried before) is "carbohydrate
loading" in the days immediately before the event.

The longer-term idea is Long Slow Distance training. An interesting question
is how to increase the effectiveness of LSD workouts. Which raises the
question of what training _stress_ is supposed to get raised. Some obvious
ideas are that the stress should include: (a) running low on
readily-available carbohydrate fuel; and (b) running low on
readily-available fatty acid fuel.

How to increase that training stress? I've been trying not ingesting any
calories for two or three hours at a time during Long Slow Distance
workouts. Instead only just drink plain water. (I used to always sip carbo
drinks the whole time). Then exercise long enough to deplete the stored
glycogen in the muscles -- and that's the biochemical stress. Is two hours
enough? (I sure hope three hours is enough).

? too Slow in LSD?
Interesting that in the last couple of years I saw one training advisor
suggest that lots of citizen athletes are going too Slow in their LSD
workouts. (It used to be that I only ever heard that everybody was always
going to Fast.) Maybe people are confusing "Recovery" pace with "LSD" pace?

Ken


  #13  
Old February 5th 07, 02:59 AM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
[email protected]
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Posts: 95
Default Improving longer distance?

Ed Miller wrote:
I do fairly well in shorter races but when I get much over an hour I
fatigue, (esp legs) and my technique suffers, and some of the people I
worked so hard to pass return the favor. Any general suggestions for
improving more in longer races?
background: fiftyish master skier, 6 years racing, regular skier for
10, gradual SLOW improvement, weak right leg from old ACL tear and
reconstruction (done in the days before they had the operation fully
worked out) Have always had good general strength but never much of an
endurance guy prior to last 10 years.
Thanks


I'd say to definitely eat and drink more than you think you need to.

And just start slower. Go easy.

I used to also do dandy at shorter races then bonk on every marathon.
I followed the above two tips and really didn't change anything else
( no training change, etc.) and I had 5 great marathons that year. I
slowed down and ended up going MUCH faster. (I was 30 back then, a top
10 skier at short cit races and top 30-40 at marathons---always
suffering/bonking. My trick moved me way up in marathons. Your
situation isn't exactly the same but maybe close enough!)

If you start slow---too slow, you'll think---and go easy---NEVER
strain or "dig in" on an uphill!---your technique will stay rock solid
and you'll go FASTER than before! Conserve, get bone-on-bone posture
and you'll actually go faster.

That's what happened for me anyway. I was able to "hustle" the short
races and do fine. But I hadn't realized that the longer races needed
"big picture" finesse and "big picture" thinking. Going slow---and
eating/drinking and not digging-in on uphills---did the trick for me!

Best wishes, JP outyourbackdoor.com

  #14  
Old February 5th 07, 05:28 AM
Ed Miller Ed Miller is offline
Junior Member
 
First recorded activity by SkiBanter: Feb 2007
Location: Hailey, Idaho
Posts: 18
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter H.
On Feb 4, 5:24 pm, "Gary Jacobson" wrote:
"Ed Miller" wrote in message


I do fairly well in shorter races but when I get much over an hour I
fatigue, (esp legs) and my technique suffers,


Can't do much this year except to ski at low heart rates for 2 to 3 times
the length of you race distance.


It may, as Gary said, be getting the right training. But if you're
talking
about 3 or 4 hour races, it's not so easy to train double or triple
the length. Two little things in the races themselves which I have
needed to learn the hard way, and which have made a noticeable
difference
(however mediocre my results are!) :

(i) Start at the pace you can maintain for the duration, not way
faster, as
it's easy to be tempted into;

(ii) Get some replacement calories into yourself in enough quantity
during
the race---when it's over 2.5 hours, liquid stuff (Gatorade, etc.) is
not
adequate for me; the gels are, esp. that Hammergel stuff. You can suck
that down from a small flask they provide. I tie one onto an old bib
ribbon with
duct tape, and hang it around my neck and under the bib. When it's
cold, make it
about 25% liquid so it's not too thick to drain out easily.

Best, Peter
Thanks, sounds like good advice altho in some of the slower wave starts I need to be towards the front to avoid getting bottlenecked by some of the slow skiers and getting held back even slower than my ideal "duration pace".
Mainly talking about 2-3 hour races. I have thought ab. using the gels. I usually try to drink carbo/drinks from aid stations but don't linger long enough to take much. So I think I do probably need more carbs after the first hour. In a mtb race I tried the gel once and got the sticky sh... all over me & grips. Where do you get the flasks you mentioned?
Ed
  #15  
Old February 5th 07, 05:46 AM
Ed Miller Ed Miller is offline
Junior Member
 
First recorded activity by SkiBanter: Feb 2007
Location: Hailey, Idaho
Posts: 18
Default

[quote=Gary Jacobson]"Ed Miller" wrote in message
...

I do fairly well in shorter races but when I get much over an hour I
fatigue, (esp legs) and my technique suffers, and some of the people I
worked so hard to pass return the favor. Any general suggestions for
improving more in longer races?
background: fiftyish master skier, 6 years racing, regular skier for
10, gradual SLOW improvement, weak right leg from old ACL tear and
reconstruction (done in the days before they had the operation fully
worked out) Have always had good general strength but never much of an
endurance guy prior to last 10 years.
Thanks


Can't do much this year except to ski at low heart rates for 2 to 3 times
the length of you race distance. Don't expect it to help, and it may even
hurt your racing this year.

Off season is when you build endurance. It's about base, and you seem to be
lacking in that area. You probably need to do long work outs 2 x week, and
make them easy so that you don't burn out.
Upper body endurance is important, so try to paddle or double pole on roller
ski in the off season. Other wise walk up hill with poles, ride a bike,
skate or do anything you like to do. As winter comes grows closer become
more ski specific.

With out knowing more specifics, like you max and resting HR, your goals,
and the distance you plan to excel at, it's tough to make specific
recommendations beyond reading or getting a coach.

BTW I just picked up Sharkey and Gaskill's "Fitness and Health" which is a
newly titled and improved version of a book by Sharkey published years ago.
It would be a good place for you to start.
Anything by these guys who are skiers would be good for you. Also see what
Lee Borowski has written- it's ski specific.
Gary

Thanks, I'm probably not doing the long workouts in the off-season enough. I do most of what you advised but only try and do one longer workout per week with the other workouts being shorter. I probably need to do two per week as you mentioned.
Ed
  #16  
Old February 5th 07, 05:55 AM
Ed Miller Ed Miller is offline
Junior Member
 
First recorded activity by SkiBanter: Feb 2007
Location: Hailey, Idaho
Posts: 18
Default

[

I'd say to definitely eat and drink more than you think you need to.

And just start slower. Go easy.



If you start slow---too slow, you'll think---and go easy---NEVER
strain or "dig in" on an uphill!---your technique will stay rock solid
and you'll go FASTER than before! Conserve, get bone-on-bone posture
and you'll actually go faster.

Best wishes, JP outyourbackdoor.com[/quote]




Thanks for the advice, Ed
  #17  
Old February 5th 07, 03:27 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Peter H.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 38
Default Blood volume?


Mainly talking about 2-3 hour races. I have thought ab. using the gels.
I usually try to drink carbo/drinks from aid stations but don't linger
long enough to take much. So I think I do probably need more carbs
after the first hour. In a mtb race I tried the gel once and got the
sticky sh... all over me & grips. Where do you get the flasks you
mentioned?
Ed



The place I get the Hammergel (definitely no connection to them!) has
always had them. Until a few years ago, you always got one taped to
the big bottle of gel. But now they seem to sell them separately for
a few dollars. It is a product of the same company, so anyplace that
sells the `food` should likely sell the little flask, which is just
like a water
bottle but much smaller, and oblate, rather than a perfect cylindrical
shape.
This way of purchasing and using the stuff has the advantage of
probably
a better price because the bottle is a much larger quantity than a
single
pouch; and also you don't get as much waste (the pouch itself and
residue
inside it), and no mess, as you mentioned.

Of course, some people have stomachs which are sensitive to some
products like that, depending on the product, and the sensitivity
shows up only in the stress of a race-pace effort. I seem to be okay
with everything, in particular that Hammergel product. But try it
during
a long hard training effort, maybe even over-doing it, before
committing
to it in an important race.

Best, Peter

  #18  
Old February 5th 07, 08:45 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Gary Jacobson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 41
Default Blood volume?


"
Thanks, sounds like good advice altho in some of the slower wave starts
I need to be towards the front to avoid getting bottlenecked by some of
the slow skiers and getting held back even slower than my ideal
"duration pace".
Mainly talking about 2-3 hour races. I have thought ab. using the gels.
I usually try to drink carbo/drinks from aid stations but don't linger
long enough to take much. So I think I do probably need more carbs
after the first hour. In a mtb race I tried the gel once and got the
sticky sh... all over me & grips. Where do you get the flasks you
mentioned?
Ed



Ed-

I think that I have a zillion flasks and will mail you some. Just send your
post address to me.
I too am a fan of, and one of the first customers of Hammergel. It works for
me, but prior to that OJ and water is what I used. The thing about gels is
that you control fluid intake and carbohydrate intake independently. Or if
you want it all in one, just mix the gel in the water.

I do think that you need to go out for 4-6 hour training sessions.But don't
expect that to help this season for cardiovascular endurance. Maybe it'll
help with some of the physiologic adaptations in muscles, but probably not
in stroke volume. (Not an expert, but just tapping my recollections of
when I approached this stuff seriously.)

I have been amazed at how long endurance lasts. I have done essentially no
training for many months, but lately when I jump on a bike I have no trouble
completing a tough road ride. The adage that doing less training is better
than doing more is probably most true for Masters. In the end, it's the
"right" training, and that's a moving target if you intend for it to pay off
in race results. Not as tough if you just want to do well and have fun.

Gary Jacobson
Rosnedale, NY


  #19  
Old February 7th 07, 01:15 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
xcwhite
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Posts: 17
Default Improving longer distance?

On Feb 4, 11:00 am, Ed Miller wrote:
I do fairly well in shorter races but when I get much over an hour I
fatigue, (esp legs) and my technique suffers, and some of the people I
worked so hard to pass return the favor. Any general suggestions for
improving more in longer races?
background: fiftyish master skier, 6 years racing, regular skier for
10, gradual SLOW improvement, weak right leg from old ACL tear and
reconstruction (done in the days before they had the operation fully
worked out) Have always had good general strength but never much of an
endurance guy prior to last 10 years.
Thanks

--
Ed Miller


I believe the formula is quite simple: Training, Pacing, Refueling.
My favorite endurance sessions are 1.5 to 2 hrs classic followed by
1.5 to 2 hrs skate. Another good one is to compete in a 10 to 20 k
race and then ski for 2 to 3 hrs following the race. I personally
enjoy doing a long ski tour upwards of 5 to 6 hours after a race so
that I do not get board skiing in circles. With the above LSD
workouts and any LSD workouts it is important to bring enough food and
drink so that you do not bonk and to ski a pace that allows to
complete the entire distance. Most of the gains in fitness/endurance
are accomplished towards the end of the work out, not at the
beginning. Also, make sure to keep sking. Do not stop for extended
periods of time to talk to friends, eat, etc. In fact this is the
perfect time to practice refueling while skiing.

Pacing is more difficult because if you want to do well it is
important to get away at the beginning of the race with faster skiers
or skiers of your ability and speed. Just remember that everyone skis
the first k fast and then gradually slows down. An excellent marathon
skier Clint Roberts was a good example of not going out too fast. He
would start at a pace that felt extremely slow for the first K or two
and then gradually increase the pace as other skiers were slowing
down. Before you know it he was back up with the lead skiers and was
less fatigued.

Refueling needs to be practiced during longer training sessions so
that you get a feel for when and what you need to eat. I personally
think sport's drink provides plenty of energy for a marathon and
therefore I avoid any type of gels or other solid food for races less
than 3 hours. They are easier to consume while skiing and there are
no wrappers to deal with. I fill my bottle with warm liquid, tape a
hand warmer heat pack to the top portion of the bottle and then carry
the bottle upside down in my drink belt. Never have had a problem
with freezing using this method. I always try to finish my bottle
before the end of the race.

  #20  
Old February 7th 07, 06:08 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Ken Roberts
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Posts: 243
Default Improving longer distance?

xcwhite wrote
I believe the formula is quite simple: Training, Pacing, Refueling.


I think there's a fourth factor which makes it more complicated: individual
genetic makeup (and personal history of its expression).

doing a long ski tour upwards of 5 to 6 hours ...
ski a pace that allows to complete the entire distance.


For a different perspective on Long Slow Distance, find the E-tips under
Info on Joe Friel's UltraFit website:
http://www.ultrafit.com/etips.asp
and look at "AeT Training" on the January 2006 page -- some ideas about not
such long duration and not such low intensity.

make sure to keep sking.


I do not get what the physiology is behind why it's bad to stop to talk with
friends for 5 or 10 minutes, or to carefully check the map -- why that
should significantly reduce the specific stress of a long distance workout,
or hinder the training adaptation following. Nor am I seeing how a
straightforward experiment could be designed to measure the impact of pauses
on the effectiveness of long distance training.

... practice refueling while skiing.


Yes it occurs to me that in addition to the mechanics of ski poles + gloves,
there might be some physiology to be trained for better re-fueling: like
adjusting your internal biochemistry to get better at absorbing nutrients
and transporting them to muscles while exercising -- just the opposite of
the idea of trying to achieve "depletion stress" by not eating while
exercising. Maybe one approach is better than the other for different
people -- or perhaps for some people each could be good on different days.

One of my ski partners is a pretty successful ultramarathon runner. To my
surprise he doesn't believe in sipping a sports drink every 10-15 minutes --
thinks his body is pretty good at "averaging" over less frequent intakes of
food and drink. I'm guessing that it takes some training (and genetic
predisposition?) to be good at absorbing nutrients while _running_.

I personally think sport's drink provides plenty of energy for a marathon
... I always try to finish my bottle before the end of the race.


Whether you eat the fuel or drink the fuel is not a big issue, since either
way, once down in your stomach the nutrients end up dissolved in water.
Seems to me the key question for fueling is how much of different
proportions of nutrients you can effectively absorb and transport to the
muscles per hour of exercise at racing pace.

I think for most athletes it's at least 250 calories (really kilo-calories)
per hour, maybe lotsa people 300 calories or more. So for a 3-hour ski race
that would be 900 calories. Most sport drinks do not have 900 calories in a
single bottle. So most skiers are not going to get as much fuel as they
_could_ utilize by taking only a sport drink at normal concentration.

That's because most sport drinks are designed for warmer weather where the
intended drinking rate is around one bottle per hour. For skiers to more
fully utilize their "stomach" capacity, they need to either supplement the
liquid with something solid, or mix the powder with liquid themselves at
much higher concentration than they'd use for summer. I seem to remember
John Tomlinson once posted the idea of mixing maltodextrin with water at a
high concentration pretty thick.

But the point is not to have just enough fuel to "get through the race"
without "bonking". Because the human body is much more complicated than an
automobile. The fueling of our muscles is not just by a mechanical pump, the
fuel must cross diffusion gradients and membranes, then with "combustion"
speed of reaction kinematics in the muscle driven by concentrations, not
just presence versus absence. So while an automobile runs at pretty near the
same speed until just before the last drop of gasoline is consumed, I think
the speed of human "combustion" must start dropping long before the last
gram of available fuel is consumed.

And beyond diffusion gradients and reaction kinematics, I think there's
evidence that the brain's "fatigue" center (when not drugged) is designed to
keep your performance within a "safe envelope" to ensure that you'll be
strong + healthy for future survival + reproduction -- not permit you to
take any parameter to its true physical "limit", because that would increase
the risk of long-term damage.

So I think you're going to be able to ski faster if your bloodstream +
muscles are _well_ fueled, not just with "enough" fuel.

Ken



 




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