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#11
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Improving longer distance?
On Feb 4, 5:24 pm, "Gary Jacobson" wrote:
"Ed Miller" wrote in message I do fairly well in shorter races but when I get much over an hour I fatigue, (esp legs) and my technique suffers, Can't do much this year except to ski at low heart rates for 2 to 3 times the length of you race distance. It may, as Gary said, be getting the right training. But if you're talking about 3 or 4 hour races, it's not so easy to train double or triple the length. Two little things in the races themselves which I have needed to learn the hard way, and which have made a noticeable difference (however mediocre my results are!) : (i) Start at the pace you can maintain for the duration, not way faster, as it's easy to be tempted into; (ii) Get some replacement calories into yourself in enough quantity during the race---when it's over 2.5 hours, liquid stuff (Gatorade, etc.) is not adequate for me; the gels are, esp. that Hammergel stuff. You can suck that down from a small flask they provide. I tie one onto an old bib ribbon with duct tape, and hang it around my neck and under the bib. When it's cold, make it about 25% liquid so it's not too thick to drain out easily. Best, Peter |
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#12
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Improving longer distance?
Something I've been working on this year is how to train for performances of
8 hours or more. So I'd be glad for some ideas about that. Lots of the ideas I've been trying fall into the two categories given by Peter H: (i) Start at the pace you can maintain for the duration Seems pretty clear that it's important to stay away from significant acid build-up, which for me often comes from trying to maintain too much speed up a moderate-length hill. Also to stay away from peak-force loads on the muscles -- like taking too long a stride up a hill. (ii) Get some replacement calories into yourself in enough quantity Lots of the talk on race performance limiters is about lactic acid. I'm coming to think that for longer performances running low on readily available _fuel_ becomes a key limiter. Part of the answer to this is surely ingesting calories during the event, but I've heard there are limits on how fast you absorb it. The other approach is to try to increase the _availability_ of stored fuel -- get more glycogen (and fatty acids) stored in (or near?) the muscle cells. The short-term idea (which I haven't tried before) is "carbohydrate loading" in the days immediately before the event. The longer-term idea is Long Slow Distance training. An interesting question is how to increase the effectiveness of LSD workouts. Which raises the question of what training _stress_ is supposed to get raised. Some obvious ideas are that the stress should include: (a) running low on readily-available carbohydrate fuel; and (b) running low on readily-available fatty acid fuel. How to increase that training stress? I've been trying not ingesting any calories for two or three hours at a time during Long Slow Distance workouts. Instead only just drink plain water. (I used to always sip carbo drinks the whole time). Then exercise long enough to deplete the stored glycogen in the muscles -- and that's the biochemical stress. Is two hours enough? (I sure hope three hours is enough). ? too Slow in LSD? Interesting that in the last couple of years I saw one training advisor suggest that lots of citizen athletes are going too Slow in their LSD workouts. (It used to be that I only ever heard that everybody was always going to Fast.) Maybe people are confusing "Recovery" pace with "LSD" pace? Ken |
#13
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Improving longer distance?
Ed Miller wrote:
I do fairly well in shorter races but when I get much over an hour I fatigue, (esp legs) and my technique suffers, and some of the people I worked so hard to pass return the favor. Any general suggestions for improving more in longer races? background: fiftyish master skier, 6 years racing, regular skier for 10, gradual SLOW improvement, weak right leg from old ACL tear and reconstruction (done in the days before they had the operation fully worked out) Have always had good general strength but never much of an endurance guy prior to last 10 years. Thanks I'd say to definitely eat and drink more than you think you need to. And just start slower. Go easy. I used to also do dandy at shorter races then bonk on every marathon. I followed the above two tips and really didn't change anything else ( no training change, etc.) and I had 5 great marathons that year. I slowed down and ended up going MUCH faster. (I was 30 back then, a top 10 skier at short cit races and top 30-40 at marathons---always suffering/bonking. My trick moved me way up in marathons. Your situation isn't exactly the same but maybe close enough!) If you start slow---too slow, you'll think---and go easy---NEVER strain or "dig in" on an uphill!---your technique will stay rock solid and you'll go FASTER than before! Conserve, get bone-on-bone posture and you'll actually go faster. That's what happened for me anyway. I was able to "hustle" the short races and do fine. But I hadn't realized that the longer races needed "big picture" finesse and "big picture" thinking. Going slow---and eating/drinking and not digging-in on uphills---did the trick for me! Best wishes, JP outyourbackdoor.com |
#14
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Quote:
Mainly talking about 2-3 hour races. I have thought ab. using the gels. I usually try to drink carbo/drinks from aid stations but don't linger long enough to take much. So I think I do probably need more carbs after the first hour. In a mtb race I tried the gel once and got the sticky sh... all over me & grips. Where do you get the flasks you mentioned? Ed |
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#16
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[
I'd say to definitely eat and drink more than you think you need to. And just start slower. Go easy. If you start slow---too slow, you'll think---and go easy---NEVER strain or "dig in" on an uphill!---your technique will stay rock solid and you'll go FASTER than before! Conserve, get bone-on-bone posture and you'll actually go faster. Best wishes, JP outyourbackdoor.com[/quote] Thanks for the advice, Ed |
#17
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Blood volume?
Mainly talking about 2-3 hour races. I have thought ab. using the gels. I usually try to drink carbo/drinks from aid stations but don't linger long enough to take much. So I think I do probably need more carbs after the first hour. In a mtb race I tried the gel once and got the sticky sh... all over me & grips. Where do you get the flasks you mentioned? Ed The place I get the Hammergel (definitely no connection to them!) has always had them. Until a few years ago, you always got one taped to the big bottle of gel. But now they seem to sell them separately for a few dollars. It is a product of the same company, so anyplace that sells the `food` should likely sell the little flask, which is just like a water bottle but much smaller, and oblate, rather than a perfect cylindrical shape. This way of purchasing and using the stuff has the advantage of probably a better price because the bottle is a much larger quantity than a single pouch; and also you don't get as much waste (the pouch itself and residue inside it), and no mess, as you mentioned. Of course, some people have stomachs which are sensitive to some products like that, depending on the product, and the sensitivity shows up only in the stress of a race-pace effort. I seem to be okay with everything, in particular that Hammergel product. But try it during a long hard training effort, maybe even over-doing it, before committing to it in an important race. Best, Peter |
#18
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Blood volume?
" Thanks, sounds like good advice altho in some of the slower wave starts I need to be towards the front to avoid getting bottlenecked by some of the slow skiers and getting held back even slower than my ideal "duration pace". Mainly talking about 2-3 hour races. I have thought ab. using the gels. I usually try to drink carbo/drinks from aid stations but don't linger long enough to take much. So I think I do probably need more carbs after the first hour. In a mtb race I tried the gel once and got the sticky sh... all over me & grips. Where do you get the flasks you mentioned? Ed Ed- I think that I have a zillion flasks and will mail you some. Just send your post address to me. I too am a fan of, and one of the first customers of Hammergel. It works for me, but prior to that OJ and water is what I used. The thing about gels is that you control fluid intake and carbohydrate intake independently. Or if you want it all in one, just mix the gel in the water. I do think that you need to go out for 4-6 hour training sessions.But don't expect that to help this season for cardiovascular endurance. Maybe it'll help with some of the physiologic adaptations in muscles, but probably not in stroke volume. (Not an expert, but just tapping my recollections of when I approached this stuff seriously.) I have been amazed at how long endurance lasts. I have done essentially no training for many months, but lately when I jump on a bike I have no trouble completing a tough road ride. The adage that doing less training is better than doing more is probably most true for Masters. In the end, it's the "right" training, and that's a moving target if you intend for it to pay off in race results. Not as tough if you just want to do well and have fun. Gary Jacobson Rosnedale, NY |
#19
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Improving longer distance?
On Feb 4, 11:00 am, Ed Miller wrote:
I do fairly well in shorter races but when I get much over an hour I fatigue, (esp legs) and my technique suffers, and some of the people I worked so hard to pass return the favor. Any general suggestions for improving more in longer races? background: fiftyish master skier, 6 years racing, regular skier for 10, gradual SLOW improvement, weak right leg from old ACL tear and reconstruction (done in the days before they had the operation fully worked out) Have always had good general strength but never much of an endurance guy prior to last 10 years. Thanks -- Ed Miller I believe the formula is quite simple: Training, Pacing, Refueling. My favorite endurance sessions are 1.5 to 2 hrs classic followed by 1.5 to 2 hrs skate. Another good one is to compete in a 10 to 20 k race and then ski for 2 to 3 hrs following the race. I personally enjoy doing a long ski tour upwards of 5 to 6 hours after a race so that I do not get board skiing in circles. With the above LSD workouts and any LSD workouts it is important to bring enough food and drink so that you do not bonk and to ski a pace that allows to complete the entire distance. Most of the gains in fitness/endurance are accomplished towards the end of the work out, not at the beginning. Also, make sure to keep sking. Do not stop for extended periods of time to talk to friends, eat, etc. In fact this is the perfect time to practice refueling while skiing. Pacing is more difficult because if you want to do well it is important to get away at the beginning of the race with faster skiers or skiers of your ability and speed. Just remember that everyone skis the first k fast and then gradually slows down. An excellent marathon skier Clint Roberts was a good example of not going out too fast. He would start at a pace that felt extremely slow for the first K or two and then gradually increase the pace as other skiers were slowing down. Before you know it he was back up with the lead skiers and was less fatigued. Refueling needs to be practiced during longer training sessions so that you get a feel for when and what you need to eat. I personally think sport's drink provides plenty of energy for a marathon and therefore I avoid any type of gels or other solid food for races less than 3 hours. They are easier to consume while skiing and there are no wrappers to deal with. I fill my bottle with warm liquid, tape a hand warmer heat pack to the top portion of the bottle and then carry the bottle upside down in my drink belt. Never have had a problem with freezing using this method. I always try to finish my bottle before the end of the race. |
#20
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Improving longer distance?
xcwhite wrote
I believe the formula is quite simple: Training, Pacing, Refueling. I think there's a fourth factor which makes it more complicated: individual genetic makeup (and personal history of its expression). doing a long ski tour upwards of 5 to 6 hours ... ski a pace that allows to complete the entire distance. For a different perspective on Long Slow Distance, find the E-tips under Info on Joe Friel's UltraFit website: http://www.ultrafit.com/etips.asp and look at "AeT Training" on the January 2006 page -- some ideas about not such long duration and not such low intensity. make sure to keep sking. I do not get what the physiology is behind why it's bad to stop to talk with friends for 5 or 10 minutes, or to carefully check the map -- why that should significantly reduce the specific stress of a long distance workout, or hinder the training adaptation following. Nor am I seeing how a straightforward experiment could be designed to measure the impact of pauses on the effectiveness of long distance training. ... practice refueling while skiing. Yes it occurs to me that in addition to the mechanics of ski poles + gloves, there might be some physiology to be trained for better re-fueling: like adjusting your internal biochemistry to get better at absorbing nutrients and transporting them to muscles while exercising -- just the opposite of the idea of trying to achieve "depletion stress" by not eating while exercising. Maybe one approach is better than the other for different people -- or perhaps for some people each could be good on different days. One of my ski partners is a pretty successful ultramarathon runner. To my surprise he doesn't believe in sipping a sports drink every 10-15 minutes -- thinks his body is pretty good at "averaging" over less frequent intakes of food and drink. I'm guessing that it takes some training (and genetic predisposition?) to be good at absorbing nutrients while _running_. I personally think sport's drink provides plenty of energy for a marathon ... I always try to finish my bottle before the end of the race. Whether you eat the fuel or drink the fuel is not a big issue, since either way, once down in your stomach the nutrients end up dissolved in water. Seems to me the key question for fueling is how much of different proportions of nutrients you can effectively absorb and transport to the muscles per hour of exercise at racing pace. I think for most athletes it's at least 250 calories (really kilo-calories) per hour, maybe lotsa people 300 calories or more. So for a 3-hour ski race that would be 900 calories. Most sport drinks do not have 900 calories in a single bottle. So most skiers are not going to get as much fuel as they _could_ utilize by taking only a sport drink at normal concentration. That's because most sport drinks are designed for warmer weather where the intended drinking rate is around one bottle per hour. For skiers to more fully utilize their "stomach" capacity, they need to either supplement the liquid with something solid, or mix the powder with liquid themselves at much higher concentration than they'd use for summer. I seem to remember John Tomlinson once posted the idea of mixing maltodextrin with water at a high concentration pretty thick. But the point is not to have just enough fuel to "get through the race" without "bonking". Because the human body is much more complicated than an automobile. The fueling of our muscles is not just by a mechanical pump, the fuel must cross diffusion gradients and membranes, then with "combustion" speed of reaction kinematics in the muscle driven by concentrations, not just presence versus absence. So while an automobile runs at pretty near the same speed until just before the last drop of gasoline is consumed, I think the speed of human "combustion" must start dropping long before the last gram of available fuel is consumed. And beyond diffusion gradients and reaction kinematics, I think there's evidence that the brain's "fatigue" center (when not drugged) is designed to keep your performance within a "safe envelope" to ensure that you'll be strong + healthy for future survival + reproduction -- not permit you to take any parameter to its true physical "limit", because that would increase the risk of long-term damage. So I think you're going to be able to ski faster if your bloodstream + muscles are _well_ fueled, not just with "enough" fuel. Ken |
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