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Questions about waxing
I've some questions related to ski waxing. I've been out of x-country skiing
for about a decade. I'm now getting back in shape (and on my skis) but I have a little bit of catch-up to do about ski preparation and waxing. First, it seems that the best way to prepare new skis is to apply many layers of hot glider on them to saturate the base (or put them in a Toko termo bag to save a couple of layers and hours!). I have a question regarding that. I know that a ski base is porous and the goal of ski preparation is to fill the pore and scrape the base to remove the excedent glider wax. I'm wondering why in this case it's important to apply many layers of glider on a new ski? If the base is saturated with lets say 6 layers of yellow glider, all the pores will be filled. If I want to apply a race day glider on top of that, I wonder if that glider will be able to penetrate the base since all the pores are already saturated with yellow glider. In other words, don't you think that after 2 layers, the base is saturated and all you put on the ski pass this point will be removed when you'll scrape the ski? Second question is related to kick waxes. All the Start MFW, Swix Krystal VR or Toko Cabon gripwaxes are new for me (and pretty expensive too!). Are they providing a real improvement over traditional gripwaxes I was using 10-15 years ago? Third, do you have any documents and/or website I can access with neutral information or tricks about waxing (both gliders and kick waxes)? I remember when I was skiing that for exemple a blend of 2/3 green Start glider + 1/3 of yellow Toko was doing miracle in some conditions. If I'm looking at the wax compagnies website, they're all preaching for their products. I know experimentation is a good way to learn but as the "new" (at least for me!) waxes are somewhat expensive, I would like to havefeedbacks and advices rater that try (and buy) all of them! Last, I'm curious about Start grip tape. Do you know if it's available in North America? Thanks a lot! SebB p.s. I received 3 pairs of Visu, 2 skate + 1 classic. I've tried the classic pair last weekend for 15k. I'll try the skate model tomorrow to see hot they feel compared to my 1990's RCS. |
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#2
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Questions about waxing
race day glider on top of that, I wonder if that glider will be able to penetrate the base since all the pores are already saturated with yellow glider. In other words, don't you think that after 2 layers, the base is saturated and all you put on the ski pass this point will be removed when you'll scrape the ski? When you want to wipe up a spill you wet the sponge first. A damp sponge easily absorbs the spilled fluid, but a dry sponge doesn't. Same thing with the ski base. The race wax can be more easily absorbed by the saturated base where it will replace the existing wax. That process will properly harden the plastic to the desired level. You ski on the plastic, not wax. The wax is put on to change the plastic. Second question is related to kick waxes. All the Start MFW, Swix Krystal VR or Toko Cabon gripwaxes are new for me (and pretty expensive too!). Are they providing a real improvement over traditional gripwaxes I was using 10-15 years ago? I would say a definite yes. They resist icing so much better than older klisters. However, our World Cup technician tells us that the "normal" klister is still used on the WC in certain conditions, so if you have old klister or want to save money you can use the regular stuff and still have a good time. Rob Bradlee Toko Tech Team ===== Rob Bradlee Java, C++, Perl, XML, OOAD, Linux, and Unix Training |
#3
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Questions about waxing
On 5 Dec 2003 09:58:55 -0800, Rob Bradlee wrote:
When you want to wipe up a spill you wet the sponge first. A damp sponge easily absorbs the spilled fluid, but a dry sponge doesn't. Same thing with the ski base. The race wax can be more easily absorbe= d by the saturated base where it will replace the existing wax. Where does the existing wax go? I'm not being facetious, just curious. Your metaphor seems to reach its= = limit b/c one always needs to wring out a saturated sponge to make room = for new water & there isn't a comparable process with the base of a ski.= = Does it end up going deeper into the base, or does it mix with the new w= ax = on the surface and gradually get removed through scraping / brushing? |
#4
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Questions about waxing
Good question Derick! I would have asked exactly the same thing!
Curious to read the answer! SebB "Derick Fay" a écrit dans le message de newsprzqbyijvczptmm@localhost... On 5 Dec 2003 09:58:55 -0800, Rob Bradlee wrote: When you want to wipe up a spill you wet the sponge first. A damp sponge easily absorbs the spilled fluid, but a dry sponge doesn't. Same thing with the ski base. The race wax can be more easily absorbed by the saturated base where it will replace the existing wax. Where does the existing wax go? I'm not being facetious, just curious. Your metaphor seems to reach its limit b/c one always needs to wring out a saturated sponge to make room for new water & there isn't a comparable process with the base of a ski. Does it end up going deeper into the base, or does it mix with the new wax on the surface and gradually get removed through scraping / brushing? |
#5
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Questions about waxing
Might be interesting to weigh the skis with a precise scale after numerous
wax and scrape cycles. GJ "Derick Fay" wrote in message newsprzqbyijvczptmm@localhost... On 5 Dec 2003 09:58:55 -0800, Rob Bradlee wrote: Where does the existing wax go? |
#6
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Questions about waxing
"Derick Fay" wrote in message
newsprzqbyijvczptmm@localhost... Where does the existing wax go? When you put a new wax on you heat both the new wax on the surface and the wax that is already located within the top layer of the ski base structure. The heat turns the wax into liquid. Other than some incompatible liquids like oil and water, liquids tend to disperse evenly when mixed to produce an even blend. At the ski base surface when you are applying a new wax there will be relatively more of the new wax in liquid form than of the old wax imbedded in the ski. As a result the blend of liquid wax on and immediately below the surface will be predominantly composed of the new wax. The wax that remains imbedded in the ski base when the surface has been scraped will be a blend containing mostly the new wax, but also having a component of the old wax. This is one of the reasons you should use a good quality wax suitable for the temperature range you most often encounter for impregnating new skis with wax. I was once at a presentation by a Toko waxing specialist who claimed that not all brands of wax interact with the desired result. For that reason you should only use Toko waxes so you would know that all waxes would be compatible. I didn't have the audacity to ask him if that meant that if I had Start wax on my skis I should never switch to Toko. Scott |
#7
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Questions about waxing
A follow-up: for new skis, the recommendation I've generally seen is to =
impregnate with a warm (e.g. Swix CH8 or 10) wax, 3-4 coats (scrape, = brush), then the wax of the day. Which in the conditions I usually ski = in = is more often CH7 or CH6 temperature range. Should I be using CH7 for t= he = impregnation as well? The wax that remains imbedded in the ski base when the surface has bee= n scraped will be a blend containing mostly the new wax, but also having= a component of the old wax. This is one of the reasons you should use a= = good quality wax suitable for the temperature range you most often = encounter for impregnating new skis with wax. |
#8
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Questions about waxing
That's another school of thought. The warm wax has a lower melting point so
it is easier to fully saturate the base. Also, because it is more fluid it can be used to draw out dirt that is imbedded in the base. I prefer to use the most commonly used wax, but there is good support for the soft wax method as well. Who knows which is best in the long term? Scott "Derick Fay" wrote in message newsprzqps3ptczptmm@localhost... A follow-up: for new skis, the recommendation I've generally seen is to impregnate with a warm (e.g. Swix CH8 or 10) wax, 3-4 coats (scrape, brush), then the wax of the day. Which in the conditions I usually ski in is more often CH7 or CH6 temperature range. Should I be using CH7 for the impregnation as well? The wax that remains imbedded in the ski base when the surface has been scraped will be a blend containing mostly the new wax, but also having a component of the old wax. This is one of the reasons you should use a good quality wax suitable for the temperature range you most often encounter for impregnating new skis with wax. |
#9
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Questions about waxing
Derick Fay wrote:
Which in the conditions I usually ski in is more often CH7 or CH6 temperature range. Should I be using CH7 for the impregnation as well? I spoke with a wax tech who is also an avid racer. With a quiver large enough to have a dedicated ski for cold weather, he puts nothing but cold hard wax in that ski. Ever. I have also heard the other, that the soft waxes will help the harder waxes absorb in. It seems obvious you will end up with a mixure in that case though. I think it also makes sense to get some harder waxes into a dedicated warm weather ski to "protect the base." When confronted with conflicting information, I just stop worrying about it and put a coat of wax of the day on spending more time on the trail |
#10
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Questions about waxing
SebB wrote:
.... layers of glider on a new ski? If the base is saturated with lets say 6 layers of yellow glider, all the pores will be filled. If I want to apply a race day glider on top of that, I wonder if that glider will be able to penetrate the base since all the pores are already saturated with yellow glider. In other words, don't you think that after 2 layers, the base is saturated and all you put on the ski pass this point will be removed when you'll scrape the ski? No not even close. After 2 layers ski is almost same as it was before. You can see that when applying 5th or 6th layer and base still soacks wax in so you can see base getting dry. Besides that wax gets out of base when skiing so when preparing skis for race you have more then enough space in base pores for new wax. Besides that you get more then enough space in pores even if you just scraped transport wax off and put race wax on. Second question is related to kick waxes. All the Start MFW, Swix Krystal VR or Toko Cabon gripwaxes are new for me (and pretty expensive too!). Are they providing a real improvement over traditional gripwaxes I was using 10-15 years ago? For normal people? It is improvement but I don't know if it's worth all that money. For race? Definitely! For races (and sorry I don't mean place 1017 on Vassa as real race), every single thing which makes you faster is worth money spend on it, even if it's just 1sec in 10km. Because sometimes that 1 sec makes difference between first and second place. But basicaly main difference is glide speed which is much better with new waxes as it was with old ones. Grip is same or sometimes even worse as it was before, but technique changed so much that you don't need to have perfect kick anymore for skiing faster. With skis which I wax for myself when I go skiing, I can easily ski, but everyone else are complaining it doesn't have any grip. Third, do you have any documents and/or website I can access with neutral information or tricks about waxing (both gliders and kick waxes)? I remember when I was skiing that for exemple a blend of 2/3 green Start glider + 1/3 of yellow Toko was doing miracle in some conditions. If I'm looking at the wax compagnies website, they're all preaching for their products. I know experimentation is a good way to learn but as the "new" (at least for me!) waxes are somewhat expensive, I would like to havefeedbacks and advices rater that try (and buy) all of them! I don't think you will find anything like that. The only real thing with this is testing, and lot of experiences. For myself I can easily say now that I can wax for my sking without looking to thermometer, and for my wife I just take 1 step warmer wax and she's happy too. But this is a bit different then before when skis needed to be as fast as possible and with as good as possible grip. For something like that noone will tell you their tips and tricks. For normal skiing I would say it's enough to follow temperatures written on box. For everything else testing is only solution... lot of testing. -- Primoz Support - IP/VoIP Connectivity & Routing ------------------------------------------------------------------- Primoz Jeroncic tel: +386 1 562 31 40 | Borovec 2 fax: +386 1 562 18 55 | 1 + 1 = 3 1236 Trzin | for larger values of 1 Slovenija http://www.softnet.si/primoz ------------------------------------------------------------------- |
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