Deep Knee bends bad?

A couple comments from before make me think that maybe deep knee bends
(all the way down) are bad for you. Did I read this right?
In answer to the question of why I did them that way instead of
shallower ones; If I spend the time exercising, I try to get as many
muscles done as possible (I don't like exercise, so I want the biggest bang)
BTW: calf and muscle stretching seems to be helping my Achilles tendon
problem so far, only been a few days though. Wish I knew what caused it
really.
Aging is kind of a pain; first I can't read close anymore, then my feet
got a full size bigger, now this tendon thing; I guess it is all minor
compared to real health problems though (so long as I can still ski!!)
gr

gr wrote in message . ..
A couple comments from before make me think that maybe deep knee bends
(all the way down) are bad for you. Did I read this right?

Many people develop knee problems as a result of deep knee bends. It
depends on how much stress you are putting on the knee and how well
trained you are. If they are just body weight knee bends, then
probably no problem. If you are using weights though, it could be a
problem for your knees. Since they don't add anything to XCski
performance, but have a higher risk of injury, I would stick with a
parallel to the ground variety.

Another reason to stick with a less deep bend would be your statement
that, "I don't like exercise, so I want the biggest bang". The
biggest bang will come from using the greatest weight (within reason)
for the exercise. You can use a lot more weight, or induce a lot more
stress doing a parallel knee bend versus a deep knee bend. Finally,
it is more sport specific.


In answer to the question of why I did them that way instead of
shallower ones; If I spend the time exercising, I try to get as many
muscles done as possible (I don't like exercise, so I want the biggest bang)
BTW: calf and muscle stretching seems to be helping my Achilles tendon
problem so far, only been a few days though. Wish I knew what caused it
really.
Aging is kind of a pain; first I can't read close anymore, then my feet
got a full size bigger, now this tendon thing; I guess it is all minor
compared to real health problems though (so long as I can still ski!!)
gr

A blanket statement would be mistaken. Rather, the question is what do
they gain you. For me, since I have a bad knee on one side (no ACL,
bone on bone) and chronic ITB on the other, going down very far isn't
good for longevity and I don't the advantage of doing so, in any case.
In fact, the prescription for my condition(s) is 30 degree leg
extensions (start at 30 down from horizontal). 1/4 squats with weights
serve a similar purpose and engage muscles at the x-c ski level.
Sometimes it works the other way around: deep knee bends put more
pressure on areas that are not injured, but are also not yet conditioned
to handle it, such as your achilles problems. Big bangs can bring big
repercussions for the unprepared. While the idea that one can't see
results for 6 weeks or more is hogwash, I haven't found any quick fixes
out there in training.

Gene


gr wrote:

A couple comments from before make me think that maybe deep knee bends
(all the way down) are bad for you. Did I read this right?
In answer to the question of why I did them that way instead of
shallower ones; If I spend the time exercising, I try to get as many
muscles done as possible (I don't like exercise, so I want the biggest bang)
BTW: calf and muscle stretching seems to be helping my Achilles tendon
problem so far, only been a few days though. Wish I knew what caused it
really.
Aging is kind of a pain; first I can't read close anymore, then my feet
got a full size bigger, now this tendon thing; I guess it is all minor
compared to real health problems though (so long as I can still ski!!)
gr

(Steve McGregor) writes:

gr wrote in message . ..
A couple comments from before make me think that maybe deep knee bends
(all the way down) are bad for you. Did I read this right?

Many people develop knee problems as a result of deep knee bends. It
depends on how much stress you are putting on the knee and how well
trained you are. If they are just body weight knee bends, then
probably no problem. If you are using weights though, it could be a
problem for your knees. Since they don't add anything to XCski
performance, but have a higher risk of injury, I would stick with a
parallel to the ground variety.

The relative safety of parallel as opposed to "a** to the grass"
squats is not borne out by all studies of squat exercises. I
agree that it *seems* like "to parallel" squats should be
safer, but they are not. (This is a perennial topic of debate
in misc.fitness.weights. You might want to do a Google groups
search of m.f.w. for squats.)

My personal experience is that careful, full-range-of-motion
exercise with free weights improved my enjoyment of skiing. The
recruitment of stabilizer muscles seems to be an important part
of the training for skiing that is favored by free weights. (I
noticed that free weight lifting, for me, translated better to
real world strength.) I used Bill Pearl's off-, pre- and
on-season workouts for cross-country skiing as a starting point
for my strength training for skiing. I can get ISBN for the book
if anyone cares...

I have one bad knee (medial meniscus gone, ACL [patellar tendon
autograft] repair at age 40), and find squats to be an
important part of my strength training program. I don't push
over 100kg because I'm old and baby my knee a bit :-)

Final disclaimers:
1. Squats are only part of the program.
2. My style of lifting is to lift only what I can lift with
perfect technique; if you squat with bad technique, you will
hurt yourself.

- Jim Fox

Hi Jim,

is this the Perl book that has XC lifting plans?
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

or is it this one?
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

Bob


"James R. Fox" wrote in message
...
(Steve McGregor) writes:

gr wrote in message
. ..
A couple comments from before make me think that maybe deep knee bends
(all the way down) are bad for you. Did I read this right?

Many people develop knee problems as a result of deep knee bends. It
depends on how much stress you are putting on the knee and how well
trained you are. If they are just body weight knee bends, then
probably no problem. If you are using weights though, it could be a
problem for your knees. Since they don't add anything to XCski
performance, but have a higher risk of injury, I would stick with a
parallel to the ground variety.

The relative safety of parallel as opposed to "a** to the grass"
squats is not borne out by all studies of squat exercises. I
agree that it *seems* like "to parallel" squats should be
safer, but they are not. (This is a perennial topic of debate
in misc.fitness.weights. You might want to do a Google groups
search of m.f.w. for squats.)

My personal experience is that careful, full-range-of-motion
exercise with free weights improved my enjoyment of skiing. The
recruitment of stabilizer muscles seems to be an important part
of the training for skiing that is favored by free weights. (I
noticed that free weight lifting, for me, translated better to
real world strength.) I used Bill Pearl's off-, pre- and
on-season workouts for cross-country skiing as a starting point
for my strength training for skiing. I can get ISBN for the book
if anyone cares...

I have one bad knee (medial meniscus gone, ACL [patellar tendon
autograft] repair at age 40), and find squats to be an
important part of my strength training program. I don't push
over 100kg because I'm old and baby my knee a bit :-)

Final disclaimers:
1. Squats are only part of the program.
2. My style of lifting is to lift only what I can lift with
perfect technique; if you squat with bad technique, you will
hurt yourself.

- Jim Fox

"Bob" writes:

is this the Perl book that has XC lifting plans?
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

This is the one..."Getting Stronger". (I had good luck starting
with low weights -- empty 45 pound bars in some cases and
working up as I understood the mechanics of the exercises.)

or is it this one?
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

I also have this one -- the 4.7 pound shipping weight gives you
an idea of how big it is. I found this book useful when I needed
variations to work around problems (or boredom) I had with some
of his suggestions.

- Jim

The relative safety of parallel as opposed to "a** to the grass"
squats is not borne out by all studies of squat exercises. I
agree that it *seems* like "to parallel" squats should be
safer, but they are not. (This is a perennial topic of debate
in misc.fitness.weights. You might want to do a Google groups
search of m.f.w. for squats.)


I would be more likely to frequent r.b.r., and that is not very
likely. I am quite familiar with many of the personalities on that
group and I would put little stock in what many of them say. The
problem is, the hypothesis is very difficult to test (e.g. Will you
be in my study, I want to see if I can blow out your knee doing deep
knee bend squats). There is some data that indicates that they would
not be that dangerous, but the safety protocols in place negate the
value of the test. The data is equivocal in my opinion and since I
don't see any value in the deep squat anyway, I'll stick with the good
ole parallel variety. That's why I used an anecdotal statement rather
than an emphatic scientific statement.

My personal experience is that careful, full-range-of-motion
exercise with free weights improved my enjoyment of skiing. The
recruitment of stabilizer muscles seems to be an important part
of the training for skiing that is favored by free weights.

How is doing deep knee bend lifts enhancing your enjoyment of skiing?
There are very few strength training exercises that I would hesitate
to recommend, but the deep knee bend squat is one of them. If you can
convince me that it will significantly enhance stabilization, or
performance in Xc skiing, then maybe I will change my point of view.

(I
noticed that free weight lifting, for me, translated better to
real world strength.) I used Bill Pearl's off-, pre- and
on-season workouts for cross-country skiing as a starting point
for my strength training for skiing. I can get ISBN for the book
if anyone cares...

I have one bad knee (medial meniscus gone, ACL [patellar tendon
autograft] repair at age 40), and find squats to be an
important part of my strength training program. I don't push
over 100kg because I'm old and baby my knee a bit :-)

If deep knee bend squats are so safe, why not pull out the stops
girlie man? Just kidding, don't want this to descend into a m.f.w, or
r.b.r fire fight.


Final disclaimers:
1. Squats are only part of the program.
2. My style of lifting is to lift only what I can lift with
perfect technique; if you squat with bad technique, you will
hurt yourself.

I agree, and many individuals do not know how to discern proper
technique and may push too hard, so, why risk a "potential" injury by
doing one "debatably" dangerous exercise.

- Jim Fox

How is doing deep knee bend lifts enhancing your enjoyment of
skiing?

Since you ask, I'll take a last whack (at the dead horse)...

I can't be sure how strength training increased my enjoyment of
cross-country skiing. Maybe just the balance work from squatting
with a barbell on my shoulders or front delts and the core
strength gains are responsible. There is certainly more balance
and stabilization work with free-weight squats than, say,
deadlifts (or Smith machine squats), or (shudder) leg extensions
on a machine. N=2 samples are still anecdotal, but we were both
surprised what a difference squats made, and we squat deep.

There are very few strength training exercises that I would hesitate
to recommend, but the deep knee bend squat is one of them. If you can
convince me that it will significantly enhance stabilization, or
performance in Xc skiing, then maybe I will change my point of view.

I'm not saying that limited RoM squats would not work at
all (indeed the recently discussed section of XC exercises in
the Bill Pearl book uses "box squats" to limit RoM and increase
control). The issues, for me, are 1) my experience is that
reduced RoM exercise translates less well to "real world"
performance, and 2) I am unsure whether the acceleration (-ve
and +ve) with the knee at 90degrees is better or worse than
acceleration with different distribution between muscle, tendon
and ligament when the knee is not at 90 degrees.

My original reason for contributing to this thread was to expose
an alternate point of view, not the one-and-only correct
view. Deep squats work well for me. YMMV.

Your turn with the stick and the horse :-)

- Jim

My original reason for contributing to this thread was to expose
an alternate point of view, not the one-and-only correct
view. Deep squats work well for me. YMMV.

Don't you live in the US? Accordingly, alternate points of view
should be suppressed, not exposed. (Again, just kidding, let's not
get jingoistic here. Couldn't resist with RNC in full swing. No
political responses please, it was only in jest.)


Your turn with the stick and the horse :-)


Naw, it's taken enough licks.

- Jim