Fallback Options

tm wrote:
BrritSki wrote:

Walt wrote:

Of course, some of us did realize at the time that the WMD stuff was an
elaborate snipe hunt, but as Astro put it so succinctly, we "didn't
matter." And while I can handle being consigned to the "doesn't matter"
bin (hey, I'm used to it) the fact is that Hans Blix and his team of UN
inspectors were put in the "doesn't matter" bin as well. If that's not
an indictment of the decision makers, I don't know what is.


But if St. Hans Blix knew there was nothing there, why did he keep
looking ? Surely he should have been screaming that it was a waste of
time, but maybe then he'd have lost his job...

I think there were very few people that thought there were no WMDs at
the time.


I think there were a lot of people who really weren't paying
attention.

Was Blix one of them ? Why didn't the dog bark, Sherlock ?

"BrritSki" wrote in message
...
Walt wrote:

But, you are correct that prior to the spring of 2003, most people
thought the possibility was likely enough to back forced inspections. It
was when the inspections came up empty that Bush and Company pushed the
panic button and invaded before Blix had a chance to report that
inconvenient fact back to the UN.

I don't buy that - how much time did he need ? The panic button took
weeks to happen, it wasn't a "push the button and watch the ICBMs fly"
scenario. Why didn't he start screaming as soon as he saw the way things
were going with Bush/Blair ? Why didn't his "inconvenient fact" get
reported when B/B tried to get UN backing for the war ?

As I recall, It was.

Norm wrote:
"BrritSki" wrote in message
...

Walt wrote:

But, you are correct that prior to the spring of 2003, most people
thought the possibility was likely enough to back forced inspections. It
was when the inspections came up empty that Bush and Company pushed the
panic button and invaded before Blix had a chance to report that
inconvenient fact back to the UN.

I don't buy that - how much time did he need ? The panic button took
weeks to happen, it wasn't a "push the button and watch the ICBMs fly"
scenario. Why didn't he start screaming as soon as he saw the way things
were going with Bush/Blair ? Why didn't his "inconvenient fact" get
reported when B/B tried to get UN backing for the war ?


As I recall, It was.


I don't recall it like that at all - quotes please.

tm wrote:
BrritSki wrote:

tm wrote:

BrritSki wrote:

Walt wrote:


But, you are correct that prior to the spring of 2003, most people
thought the possibility was likely enough to back forced inspections.
It was when the inspections came up empty that Bush and Company pushed
the panic button and invaded before Blix had a chance to report that
inconvenient fact back to the UN.

I don't buy that - how much time did he need ? The panic button took
weeks to happen, it wasn't a "push the button and watch the ICBMs fly"
scenario. Why didn't he start screaming as soon as he saw the way things
were going with Bush/Blair ? Why didn't his "inconvenient fact" get
reported when B/B tried to get UN backing for the war ?


He? ICBM? Nobody is suggesting that Hussein had icbms.

Our ICBMs dumbass. You gonna address the question about Blix ?


Sorry, didn't realize you would suddenly become a Blair-boy.

That's one of the funniest things you've said here ever - and that's
saying something

Caught me
by surprise really. In a sensible world there would be no "our" icbm,
you brits rally can't be trusted -- but what were we arguing then?
Something about how you didn't pay attention and now you are a bit
taken aback at how it's all turned to ****e? Next you'll be telling me
that i didn't mention it before and thinking that you've scored a
major point there, yes? And something about how Blix should have
jumped about more? Hasn't this discussion already been hashed about by
the colonials? Must we really reapeat it?

So no answer then ?

Norm wrote:
"BrritSki" wrote in message
...

Walt wrote:

But, you are correct that prior to the spring of 2003, most people
thought the possibility was likely enough to back forced inspections. It
was when the inspections came up empty that Bush and Company pushed the
panic button and invaded before Blix had a chance to report that
inconvenient fact back to the UN.

I don't buy that - how much time did he need ? The panic button took
weeks to happen, it wasn't a "push the button and watch the ICBMs fly"
scenario. Why didn't he start screaming as soon as he saw the way things
were going with Bush/Blair ? Why didn't his "inconvenient fact" get
reported when B/B tried to get UN backing for the war ?


As I recall, It was.

Yup. I heard it too: Blix and ElBarradei. If you didn't hear it, you
weren't listening.

BrritSki wrote:
Norm wrote:
"BrritSki" wrote

...Why didn't he [Blix] start screaming as soon as he saw the
way things were going with Bush/Blair ? Why didn't his "inconvenient
fact" get reported when B/B tried to get UN backing for the war ?

As I recall, It was.

I don't recall it like that at all - quotes please.

Appologies for repeating myself, but here ya go:

Blix's briefing to the UN Security Council on 14 FEBRUARY 2003, about a
month before the invasion.

How much, if any, is left of Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction
and related proscribed items and programmes? So far, UNMOVIC
has not found any such weapons...

http://www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/blix14Febasdel.htm

Yes, it was easy to miss this at the time, what with Colin Powell
brandishing a vial of fake anthrax on TV and Orange alerts going up
every time Karl Rove felt the need for a little oomph in the polls.

//Walt

Walt wrote:
BrritSki wrote:

Norm wrote:

"BrritSki" wrote

...Why didn't he [Blix] start screaming as soon as he saw the way
things were going with Bush/Blair ? Why didn't his "inconvenient
fact" get reported when B/B tried to get UN backing for the war ?


As I recall, It was.

I don't recall it like that at all - quotes please.


Appologies for repeating myself, but here ya go:

Blix's briefing to the UN Security Council on 14 FEBRUARY 2003, about a
month before the invasion.

How much, if any, is left of Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction
and related proscribed items and programmes? So far, UNMOVIC
has not found any such weapons...

http://www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/blix14Febasdel.htm

Thanks Walt. I've read this carefully and find that it supports my
position. The report does NOT state that there were no WMDs, only that
none had been found other than those declared by the Iraqis. The report
does mention "the issues of anthrax, the nerve agent VX and long-range
missiles, and said that such issues “deserve to be taken seriously by
Iraq rather than being brushed aside…”. The declaration submitted by
Iraq on 7 December last year, despite its large volume, missed the
opportunity to provide the fresh material and evidence needed to respond
to the open questions. This is perhaps the most important problem we
are facing.", and other things he was pursuing.

It also opens with the information about building up their capabilities
and closes with a comment about 60 new inspectors being trained, which
seems to imply that he thought there was more work to do.

I've also read it with the mindset that this is couched in diplomatic
language, but even then it just doesn't support a position the Blix knew
there was nothing to find and was saying it politely.

FWIW I think it would have been better to wait a few months longer and
let Blix finish the inspections and "disarmament" (of something that
didn't exist ?), but I can also understand the desire of Bush/Blair to
use this as an example, not just of what they were prepared to do to
rogue states (see Libya's response soon after), but also that a
democracy could be setup in an Arab state (as we all know, they didn't
have much idea about how to actually do this once Saddam was toppled).
This would have given all sorts of opportunities to resolve problems in
Israel/Palestine (which to some extent have happened) and Saudi Arabia.

I know this wasn't the reason given for going to war and I've no doubt
that both sides sexed up the dossiers, but I still don't think that
anyone seriously doubted AT THE TIME that Iraq had WMDs.

tm wrote:
The Real Bev wrote:
tm wrote:

Probably not so much the "organic" as paying closer attention to diet.
Kids'll eat a lot of junk if you let 'em.

Yeah, but 6-year-olds don't have all that much dietary freedom. She's been a
"healthful" cook forever, but the "organic" thing is new.

Oh, Bev, please, don't misunderstand, I wasn't trying to start an
argument. I know any grandkid of yours would be a healthful eater, I
hear what you're saying about those costco caramel pies and
liquid-grease-stuffed free turkeys. I'm sure the chronic cough was
caused by an unrinsed pesticide on a store-bought tomato or a
genetically modified broccoli. I was merely pointing out that
sometimes a new attention to diet changes everything.
Peace?

I'm sorry, I didn't realize I'd frightened you. I'll try to do better in future.

My grandspawn are no more inclined to healthful eating (Hey, Cadbury bars are
a buck each at Ralph's until tomorrow!) than I am, but my coughing stopped
when I gave up smoking back before the Dodgers won the Series.

--
Cheers,
Bev
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooo
If it weren't for pain, we wouldn't have any fun at all.

tm wrote:

The Real Bev wrote:
tm wrote:
The Real Bev wrote:
ant wrote:
The Real Bev wrote:

Greek/Trojan Soldier: "Tell me again why WE have to die because SHE's
cheating on her husband?"

That war wasn't really fought because a bloke went off with another
bloke's wife, you know.

And perhaps there was no war at all. I had forgotten that bit.

I thought it was a bit thin as a motive, but those people had a lot of
screwy ideas. I really ought to read the damn thing one of these days.

I watched the movie. Brad Pitt's head seems to have enlarged, but he's
still a damn site cuter than that Helen.

Haven't seen it yet. Don't tell me the ending!

Orlando Bloom shoots Bad Pitt thru the heel.

I told you not to tell me that! (STR, for non-Yanks only)

According to the Wikipedia, Achilles hid out as a woman for a while.
Perhaps that explains it. There was
also somebody around called Helenus, which might further confuse the issue.
And remember, Schliemann's integrity was not above reproach.

Haven't read the Wikipedia version, and Schliemann ate Turtle wax. The
Troy movie sucked. They didn't explain the whole dipping Pitt in
invincible juice part. Or, if they did, i dozed thru it.

His mommy (Leda, of swan fame?) it because somebody prophesied that Achilles
would die if something so she dunked him in the Styx. It was never clear
why she didn't just grab his other foot and dunk him again, and it's still not
clear how you hold a kid by his heel. Perhaps the writer (wasn't he blind?)
can be forgiven for not understanding how to partially drown a child, but still...

Why anyone would go to war
for her is a mystery. Another mystery, how could the same guys have
fought the Trojan War *and* the Braveheart War?

Are you sure? I realize it's really easy to mix guys up when they're all
wearing skirts, but I would have thought that the woad would have made a
difference.

There's a point in a movie were you find yourself saying, "Hey look,
it's Hamish, what's he doing in Troy?" And then later, "Hey look it's
Hamish's dad, what's he doing on the other side in Troy?"

I'm always amazed at how many goofs the IMDB lists. Apparently some guys in
Braveheart were wearing watches and sneakers, and in a couple of scenes you
can see a white truck in the distance.

--
Cheers,
Bev
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooo
If it weren't for pain, we wouldn't have any fun at all.

tm wrote:

Mary Malmros wrote:
klaus wrote:
The Real Bev wrote:
tm wrote:
The Real Bev wrote:

Greek/Trojan Soldier: "Tell me again why WE have to die because SHE's
cheating on her husband?"

US/brit soldier: "Tell me again why WE gotta die because some dude
tried to off HIS daddy?"

American soldier: "We're attacking this godforsaken place because WHO got
a hummer in WHAT office?"

I lost yah. Clinton's penis was a WMD? Monica got us into Iraq? She
single handedly kept us out.. ok, maybe it wasn't hands. I don't
think we're in Iraq because of too many blow jobs. I think we're there
because there aren't enough. If terrorists got a blow job now and
then, they may not be as aggressive and those virgins may not be that
big a deal or draw. I say, "More Blowjobs!" Get to it girls! Blow for
world peace, and your country for God's sake!

Um...klaus? You don't need a vagina to give a blowjob...so if you think
this is the route to world peace, I suggest you and the rest of the guys
lace on your kneepads and get to work on each other.

Important point, and kinda ties in with the whole Greek soldier bit,
but seriously, wtf are you people on about with oral sex? We're doing
trojan war/iraq war analogies here. Comeon, stick with the program.

Apparently Achilles was quite taken with a beautiful young man watering some
horses. When the young man spurned his advances, Achilles cut off his head.

I think there's a moral to that story, but I'm damned if I can figure out what
it is.

And what about Bosnia?

--
Cheers,
Bev
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