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Birkebeiner strategy?



 
 
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  #11  
Old February 7th 06, 08:50 AM
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Terje Mathisen wrote:
wrote:
32 degrees wrote:
I've read (and felt) that classic skiing averages 10 beats/min lower than
skating.
Not as many "big" muscle groups involved.

Would that explain a classic marathon as feeling relatively "easy" when
compared to a skate marathon?

JK


The thing I don't get is why cycling which uses even fewer muscles gets
my HR even higher. Or is this just some anomaly specific to me and my
level of trainig/technique/whatever?


This is almost certainly a result of specific training:

It is extremely hard to maintain an optimal distribution of effort
between major muscle groups, if you haven't done a lot of event-specific
training.

I know that I can maintain a (significantly) higher avearge heart rate
when running orienteering events than in any other activity, even
regular running. :-)

I.e. you get good doing what you do a lot of. I've seen 10,000 hours
mentioned as the usual level needed to develop expertise.

Terje


I suppose this is partially why I am so much better at skating. I've
done it more. Duh! How much difference does proper skating equipment
make? I have proper skating equipment, but my cycling buddies don't.
They have top end classic equipment. As I mentioned before, I have no
chance of keeping up with them classic style. Not even for 10 seconds.
They just have speed I cannot match, so I don't even know what sort of
conditioning I may also lack. But yesterday, I bumped into a few of
them while I was skating. For laughs (and payback!) I tried to drop
them when we were on the least hilly portion. They had no chance. They
tried everything including skating, but I just sailed away.

How much faster should skating be? For me I estimate I am at least 2x
faster freestyle. Does this indicate I am doing something dreadfully
wrong in my classic technique?

I suppose what all this means as far as HR, is I should find a zone
that works for my current level of training in any given discipline. So
for me right now for classic I should stay around 150 if I want to
maintain as high a pace as I can, but for skating I could probably go
as high as 165.

Joseph

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  #12  
Old February 7th 06, 03:23 PM
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wrote:
I suppose this is partially why I am so much better at skating. I've
done it more. Duh! How much difference does proper skating equipment

:-)

make? I have proper skating equipment, but my cycling buddies don't.
They have top end classic equipment. As I mentioned before, I have no
chance of keeping up with them classic style. Not even for 10 seconds.
They just have speed I cannot match, so I don't even know what sort of
conditioning I may also lack. But yesterday, I bumped into a few of
them while I was skating. For laughs (and payback!) I tried to drop
them when we were on the least hilly portion. They had no chance. They
tried everything including skating, but I just sailed away.


:-)

How much faster should skating be? For me I estimate I am at least 2x
faster freestyle. Does this indicate I am doing something dreadfully
wrong in my classic technique?


Yes!

Skating shouldn't be more than about 10% faster (this depends a lot on
terrain and waxing conditions!), no way should you see 2x.

I suppose what all this means as far as HR, is I should find a zone
that works for my current level of training in any given discipline. So
for me right now for classic I should stay around 150 if I want to
maintain as high a pace as I can, but for skating I could probably go
as high as 165.


Sounds reasonable.

Terje

Joseph



--
-
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"
  #13  
Old February 7th 06, 05:52 PM
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Terje Mathisen wrote:
wrote:



How much faster should skating be? For me I estimate I am at least 2x
faster freestyle. Does this indicate I am doing something dreadfully
wrong in my classic technique?


Yes!

Skating shouldn't be more than about 10% faster (this depends a lot on
terrain and waxing conditions!), no way should you see 2x.


Ok, it is established that there is a serious flaw in my classic
performance. If I were able to get my classic to be only 10% slower
than my skating, my cycling buddies would have to watch out!

I always try to not put emphasis on equipment, but perhaps this is a
factor here. My classic skis are cheap sport type skis that I bought at
a sports store. No fitting. Just me going in and grabbing a set that
said "85kg" and 210cm. I weigh 100kg. The skate skis I bought a few
years ago at Oslo Sportslager and they used almost an hour to find some
skis with the proper spenn and they are top quality. I measured my
"festesone" myself and it is very small because these skis are
obviously way too soft. I prep'ed them myself. I also prep'ed my
skating skis myself, so that is done equally poorly :-) I get WAY
better glide on the skate skis. Downhill I go fast enough to scare
myself. On some basic tests where I descend a short descent in a tuck
onto the flat finish area section, I glide at least 20m farther on the
skate skis.

Obviously on descents my classic skis are holding me back, but does it
really matter that much in diagonal stride or poling? My festesone goes
from 5cm forward of my heel to 10cm forward of my toe, so that gives
some indication of the softness of the ski.

How big a difference can way too soft skis make?

Joseph

  #17  
Old February 8th 06, 02:13 PM
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Hi Joseph,

From your recent posts, I really think that, if you possibly

can, you should get a pair of classic skis that fit you well
before doing the Birken. After all, skis are pretty inexpensive
in Norway relative to the general cost-of-living there, and you've
invested lots of time and other resources into doing that event,
which, in my opinion, is simply THE major long-distance nordic
ski event for the masses. (Forget the World Masters---at the top
end, the standards are higher in the Birken!)

You already realize how big a difference there is
between your well-fitting skate skis
and your classic skis for high-speed glide.

Low-speed glide is probably even more important.
One way to see directly the difference for that
is the following---others may well have better ideas.

Find a good flat section, and with your classic equipment,
do a sequence of kick-DP's,
but kicking on one side only, say, kicking with the left leg,
and getting that weight shift really good onto the right-foot
ski each time.
Now switch to a skate boot and skate ski only on the
right side, and do exactly the same thing.
If that right-foot classic ski really is much too soft,
as it sounds like it is, you should notice a huge
difference.

Now imagine the same thing over maybe 4.5 out of 5 hours
on the trail from Rena to Lillehammer!

Best, Peter

  #18  
Old February 8th 06, 03:22 PM
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Gene Goldenfeld wrote:

From IOC's book Cross Country Skiing: Increased lactate production in
skating probably due to use of upper body and greater leg muscle
contractions.


I usually ski with my HR monitor, and it almost always happens that at
the same perceived intensity, my HR is 10-15 beats lower when I just
skate without pushing by arms, if compared to the common technique (legs
+ arms).
So, this is a personal confirmation of what you say.
I also notice that during a xcountry training the average HR is
generally much higher than during a road-bike training...I guess this is
also related to the number of distinct muscles involved.

--
beorn
"You've got to learn to crawl
before you learn to walk"
Aerosmith (Amazing)
  #19  
Old February 8th 06, 07:11 PM
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Joseph, I'm going to go nuts here 8-) (but I'm a real striding
affectionado).

Get some good quality, properly fitted striding skis asap and take a
couple of pro. lessons as you prep for the Norske Birkie. It sounds
like you're fit and athletic and really enjoy xc skiing in general. I
think it will make a HUGE difference for a person like you, very, very
quickly. It will not only pay off in that you will have 100X more fun
on the Norske Birke, but for years to come. Regardless of your
competative goals, you will have a night and day difference in fun.

As for the effect of your inferior, ill-fitted skis: I don't think I'm
exaggerating too much to say its like the difference between a poorly
maintained, (e.g. shifts and rolls poorly) , poorly fitted, clunky
Huffy bike compared to a good quality, well fitted racing bike. Then
you could take another step from "good quality and well fitted" to
"excellent quality and perfectly fitted" - a better and definitely
noticable improvement in both biking and skiing. But that first step
is huge, further steps are more subtle and of course expensive (but
even for duffers like me, often worth it simply because its more fun).

Sure you can have fun (sort of) on both the Huffy-grade vs. the better
quality gear. Sure you can use both for fitness. But the difference in
pleasure and effectiveness is huge.

Here's my editorial comment: and athletic person like you will come to
absolutely love striding when you get decent gear and technique, maybe
even more than skating..

  #20  
Old February 8th 06, 07:12 PM
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Joseph, I'm going to go nuts here 8-) (but I'm a real striding
affectionado).

Get some good quality, properly fitted striding skis asap and take a
couple of pro. lessons as you prep for the Norske Birkie. It sounds
like you're fit and athletic and really enjoy xc skiing in general. I
think it will make a HUGE difference for a person like you, very, very
quickly. It will not only pay off in that you will have 100X more fun
on the Norske Birke, but for years to come. Regardless of your
competative goals, you will have a night and day difference in fun.

As for the effect of your inferior, ill-fitted skis: I don't think I'm
exaggerating too much to say its like the difference between a poorly
maintained, (e.g. shifts and rolls poorly) , poorly fitted, clunky
Huffy bike compared to a good quality, well fitted racing bike. Then
you could take another step from "good quality and well fitted" to
"excellent quality and perfectly fitted" - a better and definitely
noticable improvement in both biking and skiing. But that first step
is huge, further steps are more subtle and of course expensive (but
even for duffers like me, often worth it simply because its more fun).

Sure you can have fun (sort of) on both the Huffy-grade vs. the better
quality gear. Sure you can use both for fitness. But the difference in
pleasure and effectiveness is huge.

Here's my editorial comment: and athletic person like you will come to
absolutely love striding when you get decent gear and technique, maybe
even more than skating..

 




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