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#11
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Terje Mathisen wrote: wrote: 32 degrees wrote: I've read (and felt) that classic skiing averages 10 beats/min lower than skating. Not as many "big" muscle groups involved. Would that explain a classic marathon as feeling relatively "easy" when compared to a skate marathon? JK The thing I don't get is why cycling which uses even fewer muscles gets my HR even higher. Or is this just some anomaly specific to me and my level of trainig/technique/whatever? This is almost certainly a result of specific training: It is extremely hard to maintain an optimal distribution of effort between major muscle groups, if you haven't done a lot of event-specific training. I know that I can maintain a (significantly) higher avearge heart rate when running orienteering events than in any other activity, even regular running. :-) I.e. you get good doing what you do a lot of. I've seen 10,000 hours mentioned as the usual level needed to develop expertise. Terje I suppose this is partially why I am so much better at skating. I've done it more. Duh! How much difference does proper skating equipment make? I have proper skating equipment, but my cycling buddies don't. They have top end classic equipment. As I mentioned before, I have no chance of keeping up with them classic style. Not even for 10 seconds. They just have speed I cannot match, so I don't even know what sort of conditioning I may also lack. But yesterday, I bumped into a few of them while I was skating. For laughs (and payback!) I tried to drop them when we were on the least hilly portion. They had no chance. They tried everything including skating, but I just sailed away. How much faster should skating be? For me I estimate I am at least 2x faster freestyle. Does this indicate I am doing something dreadfully wrong in my classic technique? I suppose what all this means as far as HR, is I should find a zone that works for my current level of training in any given discipline. So for me right now for classic I should stay around 150 if I want to maintain as high a pace as I can, but for skating I could probably go as high as 165. Joseph |
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#12
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#13
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Terje Mathisen wrote: wrote: How much faster should skating be? For me I estimate I am at least 2x faster freestyle. Does this indicate I am doing something dreadfully wrong in my classic technique? Yes! Skating shouldn't be more than about 10% faster (this depends a lot on terrain and waxing conditions!), no way should you see 2x. Ok, it is established that there is a serious flaw in my classic performance. If I were able to get my classic to be only 10% slower than my skating, my cycling buddies would have to watch out! I always try to not put emphasis on equipment, but perhaps this is a factor here. My classic skis are cheap sport type skis that I bought at a sports store. No fitting. Just me going in and grabbing a set that said "85kg" and 210cm. I weigh 100kg. The skate skis I bought a few years ago at Oslo Sportslager and they used almost an hour to find some skis with the proper spenn and they are top quality. I measured my "festesone" myself and it is very small because these skis are obviously way too soft. I prep'ed them myself. I also prep'ed my skating skis myself, so that is done equally poorly :-) I get WAY better glide on the skate skis. Downhill I go fast enough to scare myself. On some basic tests where I descend a short descent in a tuck onto the flat finish area section, I glide at least 20m farther on the skate skis. Obviously on descents my classic skis are holding me back, but does it really matter that much in diagonal stride or poling? My festesone goes from 5cm forward of my heel to 10cm forward of my toe, so that gives some indication of the softness of the ski. How big a difference can way too soft skis make? Joseph |
#14
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#15
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Terje Mathisen wrote: wrote: Obviously on descents my classic skis are holding me back, but does it really matter that much in diagonal stride or poling? My festesone goes from 5cm forward of my heel to 10cm forward of my toe, so that gives some indication of the softness of the ski. How big a difference can way too soft skis make? Big. Have you ever tried classic on your skate skis? :-) Only when I am REALLY tired... So over-soft classic makes a big difference while striding too? Joseph |
#17
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Hi Joseph,
From your recent posts, I really think that, if you possibly can, you should get a pair of classic skis that fit you well before doing the Birken. After all, skis are pretty inexpensive in Norway relative to the general cost-of-living there, and you've invested lots of time and other resources into doing that event, which, in my opinion, is simply THE major long-distance nordic ski event for the masses. (Forget the World Masters---at the top end, the standards are higher in the Birken!) You already realize how big a difference there is between your well-fitting skate skis and your classic skis for high-speed glide. Low-speed glide is probably even more important. One way to see directly the difference for that is the following---others may well have better ideas. Find a good flat section, and with your classic equipment, do a sequence of kick-DP's, but kicking on one side only, say, kicking with the left leg, and getting that weight shift really good onto the right-foot ski each time. Now switch to a skate boot and skate ski only on the right side, and do exactly the same thing. If that right-foot classic ski really is much too soft, as it sounds like it is, you should notice a huge difference. Now imagine the same thing over maybe 4.5 out of 5 hours on the trail from Rena to Lillehammer! Best, Peter |
#18
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Gene Goldenfeld wrote:
From IOC's book Cross Country Skiing: Increased lactate production in skating probably due to use of upper body and greater leg muscle contractions. I usually ski with my HR monitor, and it almost always happens that at the same perceived intensity, my HR is 10-15 beats lower when I just skate without pushing by arms, if compared to the common technique (legs + arms). So, this is a personal confirmation of what you say. I also notice that during a xcountry training the average HR is generally much higher than during a road-bike training...I guess this is also related to the number of distinct muscles involved. -- beorn "You've got to learn to crawl before you learn to walk" Aerosmith (Amazing) |
#19
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Joseph, I'm going to go nuts here 8-) (but I'm a real striding
affectionado). Get some good quality, properly fitted striding skis asap and take a couple of pro. lessons as you prep for the Norske Birkie. It sounds like you're fit and athletic and really enjoy xc skiing in general. I think it will make a HUGE difference for a person like you, very, very quickly. It will not only pay off in that you will have 100X more fun on the Norske Birke, but for years to come. Regardless of your competative goals, you will have a night and day difference in fun. As for the effect of your inferior, ill-fitted skis: I don't think I'm exaggerating too much to say its like the difference between a poorly maintained, (e.g. shifts and rolls poorly) , poorly fitted, clunky Huffy bike compared to a good quality, well fitted racing bike. Then you could take another step from "good quality and well fitted" to "excellent quality and perfectly fitted" - a better and definitely noticable improvement in both biking and skiing. But that first step is huge, further steps are more subtle and of course expensive (but even for duffers like me, often worth it simply because its more fun). Sure you can have fun (sort of) on both the Huffy-grade vs. the better quality gear. Sure you can use both for fitness. But the difference in pleasure and effectiveness is huge. Here's my editorial comment: and athletic person like you will come to absolutely love striding when you get decent gear and technique, maybe even more than skating.. |
#20
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Joseph, I'm going to go nuts here 8-) (but I'm a real striding
affectionado). Get some good quality, properly fitted striding skis asap and take a couple of pro. lessons as you prep for the Norske Birkie. It sounds like you're fit and athletic and really enjoy xc skiing in general. I think it will make a HUGE difference for a person like you, very, very quickly. It will not only pay off in that you will have 100X more fun on the Norske Birke, but for years to come. Regardless of your competative goals, you will have a night and day difference in fun. As for the effect of your inferior, ill-fitted skis: I don't think I'm exaggerating too much to say its like the difference between a poorly maintained, (e.g. shifts and rolls poorly) , poorly fitted, clunky Huffy bike compared to a good quality, well fitted racing bike. Then you could take another step from "good quality and well fitted" to "excellent quality and perfectly fitted" - a better and definitely noticable improvement in both biking and skiing. But that first step is huge, further steps are more subtle and of course expensive (but even for duffers like me, often worth it simply because its more fun). Sure you can have fun (sort of) on both the Huffy-grade vs. the better quality gear. Sure you can use both for fitness. But the difference in pleasure and effectiveness is huge. Here's my editorial comment: and athletic person like you will come to absolutely love striding when you get decent gear and technique, maybe even more than skating.. |
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