Probability of Getting Good Race Skis at Small Ski Shops ??

BT ... yep it's me, and apparently you know my kid brother.

I'm thinking maybe I should have dumbed down my original post ...
because it got someone WAY off on the wrong track. So let me simplify
my views:

Composite products are made of stuff like fiberglass, graphite, Kevlar,
epoxy-resins, Nomex, uerathane (sp?).

When you go to buy a medium sized composite bike frame from company A,
you don't have to choose between 4 or 5 frames. They are all the
same. That's good.

When you go to buy a 165 cm composite pole from company B, you don't
have to choose between 4 or 5 poles. They are all the same. That's
good.

When you go to buy a 192 cm medium flex composite classic ski, you HAVE
to choose between 4 or 5 pairs of skis. Because all the skis are
likely all very different. That's bad. That's dumb. It's 2004
.... and that's ridiculous.

Whereas the companies that make the bike frames and ski poles grasp the
idea of quality control, ski companies don't.

If ski companies made quality control a priority, then the quality of
top end racing skis would be little different between what the World
Cup red group gets and what the full price paying citizen racer, parent
or junior gets at the small ski shop. Picking skis would be
unnecessary. A medium flex 192 would be the same for everyone.

If there is any disrespect it is on the part of the ski companies. Buy
not pushing quality control they have a huge difference in the quality
of the skis they produce. The best skis go to the elite. And the bad
ones, I surely bet DO NOT go to the dumpster. They are mixed with the
remainder and sent down the retail chain to the poor suckers paying
full price. I've definitely seen this with my own eyes.

And from reading this dumbed down post - someone still thinks I'm
saying the USST does not get good skis ... they are definitely WAY out
in orbit.

Tim Kelley wrote:


When you go to buy a 192 cm medium flex composite classic ski, you HAVE
to choose between 4 or 5 pairs of skis. Because all the skis are
likely all very different. That's bad. That's dumb. It's 2004
... and that's ridiculous.


besides the very definite quality control issues, you gotta admit, not
all skiers are built like ellofson (was). you don't want all 192cm skis
to be flexed the same. you need some really stiff skis for the
kleidsdales, you need some softer flexes for the hs racer who hasn't
begun to fill out yet. so a (controlled) variety of flexes is good.
especially for the classic skis.

i wish some reps would chime in here. i have heard that even racing
skis are made as individuals, flex tested and then later paired up.
with that kind of hunt and peck pairing going on, it is surprising there
are so many good skis out there. i have never skied a pro team hand
picked ski, so maybe i don't know how good it can get. but i have been
in races where i have really hit the wax right and out glided my citizen
skier competition, like at the city of lakes loppet last year. i was
skiing with my betters for way longer than i ever had. (too bad i
didn't have the training under my belt to put the hammer down when they
broke away from me towards the end!)

Jim Farrell


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jim farrell wrote:
[snip] but i have been in
races where i have really hit the wax right and out glided my citizen
skier competition, like at the city of lakes loppet last year. i was
skiing with my betters for way longer than i ever had. (too bad i
didn't have the training under my belt to put the hammer down when they
broke away from me towards the end!)

Jim Farrell

I think you may have hit the more important thing here. Assuming you
have someone like Gear West or Finn Sisu (sorry to be provincial but
they are, IMHO, two of the best shops in North America) pick a pair of
skis that are flexed right for you, the difference between good skis and
lightning fast skis is the grind and the wax. Read back thru some of
Zack's posts about hitting or missing the wax. I really don't think
Fischer or Rossi lay up different skis for different groups. I think
picking skis is an artform - which is why the wax techs are so valued.
Ordering your skis mail order or buying them at a general outdoors store
is probably an invitation to slow skis.

Marsh

When you go to buy a medium sized composite bike frame from company
A,
you don't have to choose between 4 or 5 frames. They are all the
same. That's good.

When you go to buy a 165 cm composite pole from company B, you don't
have to choose between 4 or 5 poles. They are all the same. That's
good.

When you go to buy a 192 cm medium flex composite classic ski, you
HAVE
to choose between 4 or 5 pairs of skis. Because all the skis are
likely all very different. That's bad. That's dumb. It's 2004
.. and that's ridiculous.

Whereas the companies that make the bike frames and ski poles grasp
the
idea of quality control, ski companies don't.

Tim,

I agree with everything you've said in this thread, but I wonder if
you and many of us are too hard on the ski companies. I think that
Alpine and Telemark skis don't have the same problems, and that XC
touring skis don't have much problem. As far as I know, the quality
problem is limited to the superlightweight racing skis. Frankly, I
think it's sort of a miracle that I can even get a product that works
well for years and is so light that I can barely feel the weight. Is
it not possible that the technology is just not available to combine
the quality that we all want with the super performance that we do get
with a well-chosen pair?

I know from the little bit of cooking that I do, that it's easier to
screw up the proportions when mixing smaller quantities. Is it not
the same for skis?

I'll say that since this quality problem _does_ exist, that the ski
companies should have more inspections and that the bad skis should
never leave the factory, and clearly some _DO_ get out into the retail
channel - and that's bad for the sport.

Our local outdoor superstore (REI), lets buyers return stuff for any
reason. People can buy, try, and return skis for full credit. That
should be more common. If I were buying from some small shop and they
told me that I could do that if I bought skis of brand Y but not of
brand X, I'd be heavily inclined to buy the Y's. Even tho I have a
pretty good eye for choosing skis, I'm never sure til I've tried a
pair. You're sure right when you mentioned the disconnect between ski
quality levels vs no chance to try before you buy.

This is a great thread - thanks for starting it.
Erik

Quality control is definitely the main issue here, with poor shop practices
running a close second. When I worked as a ski tech, we noticed that some
makes of backcountry/telemark skis didn't have a consistent amount of base
material over the length of the ski. Two or three tune-ups and the core
materials would start showing through in places. Compounding the quality
issue is the fact that so few techs know how to properly locate nordic
bindings. Using the ski's balance point will result in mis-located bindings
about 90% of the time (Marty Hall, I think, wrote a piece about this for
Cross Country Skier back in the 80's). And yet, the balance point myth
continues to be accepted as Gospel in most shops.

Perhaps someone on the "inside" at one of the "Big 3" ski companies (Atomic,
Fischer, Madshus) could tell us if they are using any QC tools like S.P.C.
(statistical process control)?

-JJ

"Erik Brooks" wrote in message
news:001201c4b91d$4aa453d0$0a0110ac@Merlin...
When you go to buy a medium sized composite bike frame from company
A,
you don't have to choose between 4 or 5 frames. They are all the
same. That's good.

When you go to buy a 165 cm composite pole from company B, you don't
have to choose between 4 or 5 poles. They are all the same. That's
good.

When you go to buy a 192 cm medium flex composite classic ski, you
HAVE
to choose between 4 or 5 pairs of skis. Because all the skis are
likely all very different. That's bad. That's dumb. It's 2004
.. and that's ridiculous.

Whereas the companies that make the bike frames and ski poles grasp
the
idea of quality control, ski companies don't.

Tim,

I agree with everything you've said in this thread, but I wonder if
you and many of us are too hard on the ski companies. I think that
Alpine and Telemark skis don't have the same problems, and that XC
touring skis don't have much problem. As far as I know, the quality
problem is limited to the superlightweight racing skis. Frankly, I
think it's sort of a miracle that I can even get a product that works
well for years and is so light that I can barely feel the weight. Is
it not possible that the technology is just not available to combine
the quality that we all want with the super performance that we do get
with a well-chosen pair?

I know from the little bit of cooking that I do, that it's easier to
screw up the proportions when mixing smaller quantities. Is it not
the same for skis?

I'll say that since this quality problem _does_ exist, that the ski
companies should have more inspections and that the bad skis should
never leave the factory, and clearly some _DO_ get out into the retail
channel - and that's bad for the sport.

Our local outdoor superstore (REI), lets buyers return stuff for any
reason. People can buy, try, and return skis for full credit. That
should be more common. If I were buying from some small shop and they
told me that I could do that if I bought skis of brand Y but not of
brand X, I'd be heavily inclined to buy the Y's. Even tho I have a
pretty good eye for choosing skis, I'm never sure til I've tried a
pair. You're sure right when you mentioned the disconnect between ski
quality levels vs no chance to try before you buy.

This is a great thread - thanks for starting it.
Erik

For years, my best pair of (skate) skis were some factory seconds with
a small circle stamped in the tail. Kind of weird.

-My classic skis seem to get better with each pair I buy. I'm really
happy with the skis I got last year (both the cold and warm pairs). In
fact others have noticed my skis are fast too.
-I'm a little more flexible (less anal) about my skate skis. It seems
a little too soft or too hard both glide well and handle well for me,
but maybe I haven't developed the "taste" for really fast skis. I can
certainly tell if skis don't handle well in certain conditions and
some of my old skis plowed like an Iowa farmer, but it's hard for me
to tell if my "skis" are slightly slow (or if it's my grind, wax, or
heaven forbid, my conditioning.)

Jay Wenner

That was the same pair of skis that Carl Swenson had when he took 5th in
the 50km....

-Nathan
"Eric Shmo Chandler" wrote in message
om...
my point is this, our national team skiers are getting skis as good or
better than any other national team out there. the absolute best skis
go to the superstars, like sommerfelt, fredricksson, auckland,
freeman...

Gotta admit that Johnny Spillane sure looked like he had rocket skis
when he won his gold in Nordic Combined at the Worlds.

Eric Chandler

"Sly D. Skeez" wrote in message
om...
For years, my best pair of (skate) skis were some factory seconds with
a small circle stamped in the tail. Kind of weird.

Some years ago when some theiving swine stole my skis from
near the finish line at the World Masters event I went to a ski
factory shop at nearby Cortina and told my story.

I did the squeeze tests and the paper slide tests and selected
four pairs of classic skis off the rack for their techie to test.
He led me into their back room checked the numbers matched
then put them on a shadowgraph display to prove their un
weighted profile matched. He rejected two pairs and sent me
back outside with them. I dont know what he then tested but he
finally appeared with one pair, gave me a discounted price and
said these are just right for you.
They were.
The remaining pair went into the skip for disposal. I asked about
the skip being full and he explained these were not top line skis
but every pair despatched from that factory went thru the same
testing that mine had received.

Nathan,
Wow - that's amazing. The best skiers in the country sharing the same
pair of race skis. What do you think was so special about these skis?
Grind? Flex pattern? Residual wax affect? And why do you think it
was that these guys didn't have more skis just like this fast pair?
Tim

On 25 Oct 2004 18:28:35 -0700, "Tim Kelley"
wrote:

Nathan,
Wow - that's amazing. The best skiers in the country sharing the same
pair of race skis. What do you think was so special about these skis?
Grind? Flex pattern?

Supposedly there was a lot of ski sharing at the most recent Olympics,
with Bjorndalen's Rossignols used by several other skiers from his
country.

JT

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