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Huge variety of winning styles: Ian Harvey in new Master Skier
I just read the new Master Skier. It has a cover story by Ian Harvey
that says there are lots of very different ski techniques that winners use. ....Straddling or total weight shift. Forward torso or twisting torso. Steady or lots of up and down. Long or short strokes. Stepping up the hill...or not. They all work for stars who we can point to. So what's the right way to ski? |
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#2
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Huge variety of winning styles: Ian Harvey in new Master Skier
I've heard that article cited a lot online, which I'm not sure is
entirely a good thing. Like in any sport, there are individuals with different styles that have been successful. Harvey is correct there. My sense is that it typically has to do with the way an individual learns the sport and adapts to their own anatomy, especially while growing up. However, the problem in evaluating any style is that there are usually no comparison points, i.e., between an individual's peculiarities and their doing it another, more biomechanically efficient way. What Harvey (and others) miss is that without a determined attempt to change, there's no way to know how successful the individual could be or could have been (in pro golf, think Jim Furyk vs. Tiger Woods). Instead, they look at the results sheet and reason backwards. That said, the implied point that coaches should tread lightly with individual styles is a good one. The other thing about the article, and to speak directly to your question, is what Harvey doesn't say: no matter what the style there are certain things in technique all good skiers have in common. In talking about differences, it seems even more important to identify those. Level hips and shoulders, quiet upper body, starting poling with an ab crunch and often shoulders), ankle flex throughout the cycle, hips forward at the key moments, starting glide with a flat or outwardly turned ski, are some that come to mind. RM "Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com)" wrote: I just read the new Master Skier. It has a cover story by Ian Harvey that says there are lots of very different ski techniques that winners use. ...Straddling or total weight shift. Forward torso or twisting torso. Steady or lots of up and down. Long or short strokes. Stepping up the hill...or not. They all work for stars who we can point to. So what's the right way to ski? |
#3
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Huge variety of winning styles: Ian Harvey in new Master Skier
If we could dig in enough and interview skiers they might be able to
give us these missing datapoints. Even video might show it, if anyone cared. That is, I suspect that top skiers have indeed tried various other methods (based on their own initiative, coaching, imitation, whatever), even for a decently long time, and found them lacking so we still end up with this variety of style in top finishers. So that you might be able to get info on a particular skier using a wide variety of styles themselves. It would be good to find the common traits. But are you sure about the ones you list? Offhand, the "quiet upper body" one might conflict with a comparison that Harvey made between champs who stayed low and those who rose up and crashed down---that sounds like more "bobbing." Technique is a freaky thing. I had brief periods in 2 sports where I got pretty good---in both cases technique became more important yet "doing it my way" also became dominant, not only that but as I became fitter "my way" acquired a wider range. It got more particular and general at the same time. It was fun! I suppose it's important to keep trying, testing, measuring. |
#4
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Huge variety of winning styles: Ian Harvey in new Master Skier
It takes a lot of courage, some analytical ability and perseverance to
be willing to change styles. Those are not equally distributed, and the short career time frames and financial and performance pressures skiers deal with tend to discourage most attempts. It's not like a golfer, such as Tiger Woods, who is looking at a 30 year career. But Bente Skari did it with her skate technique. Comparing the skate styles of Virpi Kuitunen and Justyne Kowalcyzk, such as in last Sunday's final, the inefficencies in the latter's poling style presumably contributed a bit to her exhaustion in the last K or two (as did her pushing the pace from early on). My list wasn't meant to be complete, but quiet upper body is definitely one of them. It refers primarily to lateral motion, not the up and down created by ab crunch with shoulders. In Sunday's races, Todd Lodwick (WCSN) was able to pick up on the first climbs who was tired by that extra upper body movement (Marit Bjoergen). "Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com)" wrote: If we could dig in enough and interview skiers they might be able to give us these missing datapoints. Even video might show it, if anyone cared. That is, I suspect that top skiers have indeed tried various other methods (based on their own initiative, coaching, imitation, whatever), even for a decently long time, and found them lacking so we still end up with this variety of style in top finishers. So that you might be able to get info on a particular skier using a wide variety of styles themselves. It would be good to find the common traits. But are you sure about the ones you list? Offhand, the "quiet upper body" one might conflict with a comparison that Harvey made between champs who stayed low and those who rose up and crashed down---that sounds like more "bobbing." Technique is a freaky thing. I had brief periods in 2 sports where I got pretty good---in both cases technique became more important yet "doing it my way" also became dominant, not only that but as I became fitter "my way" acquired a wider range. It got more particular and general at the same time. It was fun! I suppose it's important to keep trying, testing, measuring. |
#5
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Huge variety of winning styles: Ian Harvey in new Master Skier
On Mar 18, 5:48*am, "Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com)"
wrote: I just read the new Master Skier. It has a cover story by Ian Harvey that says there are lots of very different ski techniques that winners use. ...Straddling or total weight shift. Forward torso or twisting torso. Steady or lots of up and down. Long or short strokes. Stepping up the hill...or not. They all work for stars who we can point to. So what's the right way to ski? Jeff, In re-reading my copy of Master Skier (a benefit of AXCS membership), Ian summarizes "the right way to ski" on the last page of the article with the common elements to good technique. Edgar |
#6
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Huge variety of winning styles: Ian Harvey in new Master Skier
If you're referring to "Finding Your Own Way" on page 30, he does not.
Ian poses some questions about style choices skiers might make, such as skiing off the whole foot or ball/toes and then makes some general 'feels good' points. However, the common elements of all good skiers, such as the ones I suggest, are not spoken to at all in the article. Roger wrote: In re-reading my copy of Master Skier (a benefit of AXCS membership), Ian summarizes "the right way to ski" on the last page of the article with the common elements to good technique. Edgar |
#7
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Huge variety of winning styles: Ian Harvey in new Master Skier
On Mar 20, 5:36*pm, wrote:
If you're referring to "Finding Your Own Way" on page 30, he does not. Ian poses some questions about style choices skiers might make, such as skiing off the whole foot or ball/toes and then makes some general 'feels good' points. *However, the common elements of all good skiers, such as the ones I suggest, are not spoken to at all in the article. Roger * wrote: In re-reading my copy of Master Skier (a benefit of AXCS membership), Ian summarizes "the right way to ski" on the last page of the article with the common elements to good technique. Edgar- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Sorry, I was refering to the Ian Harvey article "Find Your Own Way" of the Mid-Season 2005-2006 edition. In that article, he concluded with 7 principles that apply to all. The 2005-06 article is Part 1 with the Race Season 2008 "Finding Your Own Way" marked Part 2. |
#8
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Huge variety of winning styles: Ian Harvey in new Master Skier
On Mar 21, 1:01 am, wrote:
Sorry, I was refering to the Ian Harvey article "Find Your Own Way" of the Mid-Season 2005-2006 edition. In that article, he concluded with 7 principles that apply to all. The 2005-06 article is Part 1 with the Race Season 2008 "Finding Your Own Way" marked Part 2. Ha! So what were they? How did you find the article? Do you have them indexed? I checked the website and didn't see it. |
#9
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Huge variety of winning styles: Ian Harvey in new Master Skier
On Mar 21, 6:33 am, "Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com)"
wrote: On Mar 21, 1:01 am, wrote: Sorry, I was refering to the Ian Harvey article "Find Your Own Way" of the Mid-Season 2005-2006 edition. In that article, he concluded with 7 principles that apply to all. The 2005-06 article is Part 1 with the Race Season 2008 "Finding Your Own Way" marked Part 2. Ha! So what were they? How did you find the article? Do you have them indexed? I checked the website and didn't see it. Here goes for those of you who didn't keep your old Master Skier copies. Ian Harvey, "Find your own way", Master Skier Mid-season 2005-06 on page 54. Ian writes (with some abbreviation on my part): "Here are some principles that I feel apply to all: 1. In skating, the quadriceps group must be engaged as the primary source of propulsion from the legs (vs. glutes).... This turns the skating motion from one of pushing down and back (glutes) to directly efficient forward motion (think shin angle). 2. In Classic, the quads group is used to compress the camber of the ski and the hamstring group then acts to provide forward motion. ... hamstrings do not just work the knee joint but also the hip joint.... 3. In all techniques, there should not be much motion in the chest area. 4. Section of the course where deceleration plays a role require a high tempo and abbreviated weight transfer. 5. A technique that works for you is one whereby you can continue to fight once you get tired.... 6. Using body weight to help poling is obviously a good thing. The trick is to do this without losing the effectiveness of the legs. 7. In Skating, within a given technique there can be different gears which can be attained by making slight changes in rhythm, weight transfer, and tempo." To put Ian's conclusion in perspective, he says this at the start of the article: "Over the past few years, there has been much weighing-in on technique from highly qualified experts. Much of this information has also contradicted itself depending on the source and context. Despite this, I believe that when seen in the proper perspective, the information exchanged was positive and should lead to individual improvement." Ian also talks about: "There is no optimal technique" and "We are all different with different geometries, muscle make-ups, fitness levels and even attitudes". How' that Jeff. I hope I didn't violate any copyrights. If I did, sorry Ian and Greg. |
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