If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Kick method? was Lower Leg injuries
I should know better, but I have to ask because I don't; should we kick down and back or just down and momentum supplies the back part? I always do a down and then push back, but I am tooooooo self taught! gr "Hank Garretson" wrote in message le.com... At 05:36 AM 11 12 03 Thursday, Everett wrote: For the past year I've been battling a recurrent problem -- pulled soleus/gastrocnemius muscles -- in my lower leg. The problem is associated only with classic XC; skating doesn't bother or trigger the problem, probably because it involves a push to the side rather than a kick back along the axis of the leg. In any case, I had to give up classic skiing entirely last January. I haven't followed responses to your query, so maybe I'm repeating, but .... Indeed your problem could be from the "kick back" part. I suggest your classic kick should be directly DOWN, not back. A quick impulsive kick down that launches you onto the new glide ski. Ski Exuberantly, Hank Mammoth Lakes, Calif. |
Ads |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Kick method? was Lower Leg injuries
I always think there are two "kicks" in classic, not unrelated, but
sometimes confused with each other. One is down, and the other is _forward_!! Neither is back, I'd say. The "back" part comes for free from Mr. Isaac Newton, when you kick the other ski forward, and that is done more like kneeing an imaginary volleyball, than kicking an imaginary football (soccer ball to some of us). I enjoy discussing this even more than skate technique, so hopefully someone will refine, and perhaps even disagree with, the above paragraph. Best, Peter |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Kick method? was Lower Leg injuries
|
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Kick method? was Lower Leg injuries
A skier who is just relying on momentum is a skier who is slowing down.
Physics says that you have to _push_ something against something outside yourself -- usually the snow (or a tree, or the skier behind you?) -- in order to maintain your forward speed against the drag of friction and air resistance. (unless you're on downhill or you've got a strong tailwind). gr asked: should we kick down and back or just down and momentum supplies the back part? Actually the "down" part is sometimes optional. Dryland runners and walkers don't worry about kicking down, and they move forward just fine. The "down" force from their body weight is gives their shoe enough grip to sustain their push-force toward the back without slipping. Most of the time on gentle trails that works fine for me when striding on classic skis too, so I don't need to think about adding down-force with my leg-push. But often classic-stride skiers do run into two problems with that simple runner - walker approach: The big one is just that don't _execute_ the simple approach: They do not actually put _all_ their body weight on the ski they're pushing with. They put some of their weight on the other ski, or support some of it on their ski pole. So their foot slips back instead of pushing them forward. Peter Hoffman wrote you kick the other ski forward, and that is done more like kneeing an imaginary volleyball That mental image helps lots of people keep all their weight _off_ the non-kicking ski until after the kick is over -- so it fights the big problem and helps skiers get back to the simple runner - walker approach. Provided that that the deeper problem is also addressed with exercises to learn committed balance on one ski. For lots more on that, see http://roberts-1.com/xcski/classic/secrets/balance The second problem is that the grip wax doesn't deliver enough grip to avoid slipping back even _with_ the skier's full body weight committed to the push-ski (the possible reasons would fill a book chapter). For me it normally happens when I try to climb up a serious hill. So then I have to supply some extra "down" force in my leg-push to keep from slipping -- often it gets to the point where I've got an actual "hop" or "bound" in my stride. Now the mental _image_ of kicking "down" through heel may help better engage some leg muscles, even if the physics of their grip does not require any extra help. And some racers might deliberately use less grip wax (to get better glide) so they need extra "down" force even on gentle terrain. I'm glad that my goals do not require me to play it so close to the edge on waxing, so I'm glad to mostly just take the simple walker - runner approach of using body weight to deliver the "down" I need to get grip to push with. Ken |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Kick method? was Lower Leg injuries
Do I understand this correctly?:
I should kick down (flat footed) then knee the volley ball with my other leg (forward), and not consciously kick back? I am willing to try, but want to make sure I am understanding! gr wrote in message ... I always think there are two "kicks" in classic, not unrelated, but sometimes confused with each other. One is down, and the other is _forward_!! Neither is back, I'd say. The "back" part comes for free from Mr. Isaac Newton, when you kick the other ski forward, and that is done more like kneeing an imaginary volleyball, than kicking an imaginary football (soccer ball to some of us). I enjoy discussing this even more than skate technique, so hopefully someone will refine, and perhaps even disagree with, the above paragraph. Best, Peter |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Kick method? was Lower Leg injuries
At 08:12 PM 13 12 03 Saturday, Peter wrote:
I always think there are two "kicks" in classic, not unrelated, but sometimes confused with each other. One is down, and the other is _forward_!! Neither is back, I'd say. The "back" part comes for free from Mr. Isaac Newton, when you kick the other ski forward, and that is done more like kneeing an imaginary volleyball, than kicking an imaginary football (soccer ball to some of us). "Kneeing an imaginary vollyball" is against the rules so I am not sure I understand what you are suggesting. Please elaborate. Ski Exuberantly, Hank Mammoth Lakes, Calif. |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Kick method? was Lower Leg injuries
What you say Gary sounds just about exactly how I think about it, but
others may have better advice (I've never done any real coaching). If I understand Ken correctly, he sounds correct to me when he says that the downward kick is very largely just good weight transfer. And your "flatfooted" for the down kick is good if you mean distribute the weight over the entire foot, not too much on the front. Personally I need to concentrate in early season especially on kicking down with the heel. For me that gets the whole foot down, since there seems to be a little demon inside me that wants to make me claw with my toes too much. I have even traced a minor overuse injury that sometimes happened to using the front of the foot too much in the downward kick. Best, Peter |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Kick method? was Lower Leg injuries
Well, Hank, as long as the volleyball is imaginary, I must be breaking
rules that are imaginary! To elaborate, you imagine, each time you're about to kick forward, the ball heading towards your kneecap, and it needs to be given a good poke over an imaginary net about knee-high, which is magically moving along in front of you. I really do need this for my lazy left leg at the beginning of most seasons, though this year, it's not so hard to get the feel again, as I spent more hours on a nice pair of Marwe classic rollerskis that Jay T. sent me, than on the 610's. Best, Peter |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
related diagonal strike question: trailing leg
I find that I have to spend energy holding my trailing leg up or else the
(trailing) ski flops down on the track. This doesn't sound right because I am spending energy in a non-productive manner. Comments? Suggestions? .... Mike |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Kick method? was Lower Leg injuries
Yes it seems like there's some bias wired into our cerebellum super-computer
that makes it easy for us to be sensitive to the benefits of using our calf muscles for toe-push in forward propulsion -- and to forget to use our quadriceps and rear gluteus butt muscles (further from the direct action?) as much as we could. Seems that _thinking_ about toe-push just makes that bias worse. Peter Hoffman wrote: there seems to be a little demon inside me that wants to make me claw with my toes too much. My normal strategy now is to _think_ about heel push and drive to remind my unconscious super-computer to engage those bigger muscles, and trust that the usual bias of that super-computer will ensure that the right amount of toe-push gets engaged anyway. The one situation where conscious thought about the front of the foot helps is to get some extra grip for climbing up a step hill, at the initiation of the leg-push -- see http://roberts-1.com/xcski/classic/secrets/wax_pocket But that is a static "isometric" down pressing (or "clawing" like Peter says), not an active push movement. The actual backward push at that moment is supplied by the rear gluteus muscles up at the butt and hip. The static pressing of the toe is just to focus the down-pressure to help keep the hip-push from slipping. I have even traced a minor overuse injury that sometimes happened to using the front of the foot too much in the downward kick. The toe-pressure secret is a nice trick for special situations, but I don't think it should be a normal part of classic striding technique on gentle terrain. I could see how that could cause an over-use injury (especially if you're not an eliter racer who trained toe-press all summer long). The temptation to use it all the time would be a signal to take a look at ski fit or waxing, or need to spend some time on the basic balance-one-ski exercises. Ken |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Lower leg injuries in classic skiing | Everett | Nordic Skiing | 6 | December 13th 03 02:43 AM |