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Confused about skating technique names
Sorry if this has come up before...
I just came past this nice write-up, which however left me confused. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-country_skiing I seem to have been using the wrong names for techniques. I thought I was V2-ing all the time, trying to work on my V1. V2 I called poling on every right leg push. Seems I should use V1 there. Or, and this is where I'm really lost, are "gears 2 and 4", V1 and V2 Alternate pretty much the same? Different V number for the same technique at difference speeds, at least on paper, double-poling on one leg only? *** Since I've got this topic open, I'll ask some more if you don't mind, keep the list clean. -should I learn to do V2 Alternate, or any technique for that matter, both ways? Double-poling on my right leg seemed natural to me from the beginning, but after I had collected courage yesterday, I seemed to pick up poling on just the left leg decently. Felt weird, but worked. In XC racing, do situations happen where it's good to be able toV2 alternate on either leg? Even for fitness' sake? Thanks a lot for your help! Once I master these silly gotta-knows I hope to help newbies after me in my turn. ;-) *** I've effectively been using my bulky (years old) Crosskates for a couple weeks now, 80% of all my kms the past week, about 50km or so. Loving this skating/poling this to bits. All on-road, tires at high pressure. Amazing to remember how helpless and clumsy I felt just weeks ago and how I can now almost keep up with my rollerblading buddy, until he goes sprinting. My typical skate cruising speed (I get tired thighs within 1km regardless intensity) on fast asphalt, no wind, is now around 18-19kph. Is this too fast to be snow-realistic for an utter newbie, or pretty much right? Maybe crosskates just aren't so slow after all... Looking to buy or make myself some Jenex V2 Aero 150 type rollerski's, that can take wheelsizes 100-150mm or even larger. The 150's seem to be appreciated by skiers as the closest thing to actually skiing on snow, which is what I want, good training. I guess if I put on fast solid 125mm wheels I could maybe join the local rollerski school with them, as well as pester my rollerblading buddy. If we make our our, he'd get a set of his own, of course. Yesterday I almost pulled the trigger on some Rollerblade Aero 90's (4x90mm, ABEC7) on clearance sale. Not sure what is wise to work on my skating legs. Any opinions on Nordic Blading vs Rollerskiing if budget is a big factor? I hope to postpone the purchase of ski boots and bindings somewhat, ?120 for decent blades is not too bad if it's not totally stupid with poles, for that change of pace. Thanks for reading, and perhaps some help, J The Netherlands |
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On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 00:47:08 +0100, Jan Gerrit Klok
wrote: Sorry if this has come up before... I just came past this nice write-up, which however left me confused. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-country_skiing I seem to have been using the wrong names for techniques. I thought I was V2-ing all the time, trying to work on my V1. V2 I called poling on every right leg push. Seems I should use V1 there. Or, and this is where I'm really lost, are "gears 2 and 4", V1 and V2 Alternate pretty much the same? Different V number for the same technique at difference speeds, at least on paper, double-poling on one leg only? *** Since I've got this topic open, I'll ask some more if you don't mind, keep the list clean. -should I learn to do V2 Alternate, or any technique for that matter, both ways? Double-poling on my right leg seemed natural to me from the beginning, but after I had collected courage yesterday, I seemed to pick up poling on just the left leg decently. Felt weird, but worked. In XC racing, do situations happen where it's good to be able toV2 alternate on either leg? Even for fitness' sake? Thanks a lot for your help! Once I master these silly gotta-knows I hope to help newbies after me in my turn. ;-) *** I've effectively been using my bulky (years old) Crosskates for a couple weeks now, 80% of all my kms the past week, about 50km or so. Loving this skating/poling this to bits. All on-road, tires at high pressure. Amazing to remember how helpless and clumsy I felt just weeks ago and how I can now almost keep up with my rollerblading buddy, until he goes sprinting. My typical skate cruising speed (I get tired thighs within 1km regardless intensity) on fast asphalt, no wind, is now around 18-19kph. Is this too fast to be snow-realistic for an utter newbie, or pretty much right? Maybe crosskates just aren't so slow after all... Looking to buy or make myself some Jenex V2 Aero 150 type rollerski's, that can take wheelsizes 100-150mm or even larger. The 150's seem to be appreciated by skiers as the closest thing to actually skiing on snow, which is what I want, good training. I guess if I put on fast solid 125mm wheels I could maybe join the local rollerski school with them, as well as pester my rollerblading buddy. If we make our our, he'd get a set of his own, of course. Yesterday I almost pulled the trigger on some Rollerblade Aero 90's (4x90mm, ABEC7) on clearance sale. Not sure what is wise to work on my skating legs. Any opinions on Nordic Blading vs Rollerskiing if budget is a big factor? I hope to postpone the purchase of ski boots and bindings somewhat, ?120 for decent blades is not too bad if it's not totally stupid with poles, for that change of pace. Thanks for reading, and perhaps some help, J The Netherlands This numbering of techniques are confusion, we have a name for each style. Whatt i present here is more or less a direct translation from norwegian, so there may be other names on english -I don't know. Id anyone have another name on these tchnique please help me out. V1 is gliding heribone (norwegian-glidende fiskebein) V2 is Canoing(refering to the comparabel movement,norwegian-padling) V3 is Dobbel-dance (norwegian- dobbeldans) V4 is single-dance(norwegian- enkeltdans) v5 is is just skating(either from an more upright position or hockeyposition) You should learn to do the "canoing" and "singel-dance" altenating. Depending on the the terrain it will of your advantage to handle both sides. It will also fell more comfortable when both side are equally fatuiged Problems with alternating is indicating that your not having the same press-push sequence on both sides and don't glide equally on both skies, so this is more than just getting used to altenating. Studying Biathlon athletes is good way to learn, some of them are the best when it comes to technique. Especially look at them when they are "canoing"(v2), very few of them glides the same lenght on the ski on each side. Take a look at Bjørndalen, Frode Andresen(who alternates very often) and Sandrine Bailly - you will see that they glide equally on both skies no matter which leg they are poling at. Not so with many others. LASR |
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On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 02:02:12 +0100, lasr wrote:
Here are the US terms for these. V1 is gliding heribone (norwegian-glidende fiskebein) Diagonal skate, coaches skate and probably other things in the US. V2 is Canoing(refering to the comparabel movement,norwegian-padling) V1 in the US. Offset in Canada V3 is Dobbel-dance (norwegian- dobbeldans) V2 in the US. 1-skate in Canada. V4 is single-dance(norwegian- enkeltdans) V2-alternate and open field skate in the US. 2-skate in Canada. v5 is is just skating(either from an more upright position or hockeyposition) Freeskating and no-poles skating in the US. You should learn to do the "canoing" and "singel-dance" altenating. Depending on the the terrain it will of your advantage to handle both sides. It will also fell more comfortable when both side are equally fatuiged Yeah, JFT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com **************************** |
#4
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In article ,
"Jan Gerrit Klok" wrote: Sorry if this has come up before... I just came past this nice write-up, which however left me confused. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-country_skiing I seem to have been using the wrong names for techniques. I thought I was V2-ing all the time, trying to work on my V1. V2 I called poling on every right leg push. Seems I should use V1 there. Right; that's V1, your climbing technique: your right ski hits the ground at the same time as your (offset) double pole plant. The only "lower gear" is diagonal V-skate. Or, and this is where I'm really lost, are "gears 2 and 4", V1 and V2 Alternate pretty much the same? Different V number for the same technique at difference speeds, at least on paper, double-poling on one leg only? In V2, you pole on *both* sides, not just with the right leg push. However, the timing is different from V1: in V2, you double pole on your right ski, then skate onto the left ski; double pole on the left ski, then skate onto the right ski, etc. This can be a very fast technique, but it requires excellent balance, complete weight transfer, high hips well up over the gliding ski, and good timing. For elite skiers, V2 is used quite a lot, both climbing and on the flats; for mere mortals, it's a good technique to use to keep up momentum on a gentle climb, before the hill gets steep enough that V1 is called for. It's a great technique to work on in any case because of the balance/glide required. In fast conditions, many skiers without really good balance find V2 alternate easier than V2. In V2 alternate (or open field skate), you pole only on one side, as in V1, but with the pole timing of V2; thus the sequence is: double pole on the right ski, skate onto the left, skate back onto the right, double pole on the right ski, etc. It is a fast technique, used on fast flats and gentle downhills. The terminology is somewhat misleading, since one poles only on one side; the rationale is that V2 alternate uses the same pole timing as V2 (double pole on one ski, then skate over to the new gliding ski), but only on alternate leg strokes (i.e., only on the right ski, as opposed to the V2's double pole on both gliding skis). When the snow is fast enough that one doesn't gain any momentum by poling, the preferred technique is free skating (without poles). To add to the confusion, the Canadian terminology is different from that used in the U.S.: in Canada, V2 is called one-skate, V2 alternate is called two-skate, and V1 is called offset. Einar Svensson's book popularized another terminological system in use in Norway: Double Dance is V2, Single Dance is V2-alternate, and Paddle Dance is V1. *** Since I've got this topic open, I'll ask some more if you don't mind, keep the list clean. -should I learn to do V2 Alternate, or any technique for that matter, both ways? Yes. V1 and V2 alternate should be practiced on both sides. When skating around a turn or on a sidehill, there is a clearly preferred poling side, so one should be comfortable doing the technique on either side; switching sides in V1 also helps avert fatigue on long climbs. Double-poling on my right leg seemed natural to me from the beginning, but after I had collected courage yesterday, I seemed to pick up poling on just the left leg decently. Felt weird, but worked. In XC racing, do situations happen where it's good to be able toV2 alternate on either leg? Even for fitness' sake? Thanks a lot for your help! Once I master these silly gotta-knows I hope to help newbies after me in my turn. ;-) *** I've effectively been using my bulky (years old) Crosskates for a couple weeks now, 80% of all my kms the past week, about 50km or so. Loving this skating/poling this to bits. All on-road, tires at high pressure. Amazing to remember how helpless and clumsy I felt just weeks ago and how I can now almost keep up with my rollerblading buddy, until he goes sprinting. My typical skate cruising speed (I get tired thighs within 1km regardless intensity) on fast asphalt, no wind, is now around 18-19kph. Is this too fast to be snow-realistic for an utter newbie, or pretty much right? Maybe crosskates just aren't so slow after all... Looking to buy or make myself some Jenex V2 Aero 150 type rollerski's, that can take wheelsizes 100-150mm or even larger. The 150's seem to be appreciated by skiers as the closest thing to actually skiing on snow, which is what I want, good training. I guess if I put on fast solid 125mm wheels I could maybe join the local rollerski school with them, as well as pester my rollerblading buddy. If we make our our, he'd get a set of his own, of course. Yesterday I almost pulled the trigger on some Rollerblade Aero 90's (4x90mm, ABEC7) on clearance sale. Not sure what is wise to work on my skating legs. Any opinions on Nordic Blading vs Rollerskiing if budget is a big factor? Inline skates are a great and fun way to inject some variety into your training, but they are not nearly as specific as rollerskis. If you can rollerski, that's best; then inline skates can be used as a fun variation. Of course, for classic skiing, you need ratcheted rollerskis. I hope to postpone the purchase of ski boots and bindings somewhat, ?120 for decent blades is not too bad if it's not totally stupid with poles, for that change of pace. Most inline skates are too fast for effective ski training with poles (one can cruise along with V2 at high speeds on the flats with little effort); they also afford less valuable practice in balance and riding a flat glide ski. I would suggest just skating without poles with your skeelers, but using rollerskis for more specific ski training with poles. Thanks for reading, and perhaps some help, J The Netherlands |
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The terminology has been sorted out well by JFT.
But you ask about the difference between offset and 2-skate, (using Canuck terminology, if I may). This is a natural question, since the poling frequency easily distinguishes the other techniques from each other, and from these two. But it doesn't distinguish these two from each other. So here's an incomplete list of things which do distinguish them: Offset is a low gear, 2-skate is a high gear WCer's do offset only on quite steep climbs (unless the snow is very slow), but use 2-skate on much flatter terrain The plant positions of the poles are directly opposite each other in 2-skate (i.e. "parallel" some people say), whereas one pole is planted further down the hill (which one being obvious when you try it) in offset. (I'm not quite sure what those subjects of the sports "scientists" did when they were instructed to do offset on a flat fast trail, so that the scientists could produce some meaningless comparisons and publish a paper---but I digress.) The pole push is pretty much exactly simultaneous with placing one ski (the "strong" side) on the snow in offset. But in 2-skate, the pole push is initiated while gliding. Much more could be said here, and Gene perhaps will. Obviously, there is a continuum of possible 'techniques' which one could imagine, starting with offset and ending with 2-skate. So you will 'hear' some arcane discussions about this sort of thing (e.g. Mogren's skating style some years back) if you stay on this NG for long enough. We seem to have had very little of that recently. Perhaps skating technique is finally stabilizing. We also had some debate/discussion a few years back, if you want to look it up, about whether one should always push directly back, or push parallel to the gliding ski. The pole planted further down the hill in offset generally won't be pushing directly back, for reasons which become obvious when you try it, but I was never unconvinced that that was the only exception, i.e. push in the direction you want to go, not parallel to the gliding ski. And that weak pole in offset should push back as much as possible without tripping yourself up or planting it too far out to the side. There is yet another technique which wasn't listed, perhaps because it can be regarded as a very vigorous version of offset. It has been called "hop-skate" and "jump-skate", since you'll be able to see both skis in the air simultaneously. Look for it especially on steep climbs in sprint races. The technique video from XCZone has some good shots from the rear of this (which I like especially because one the two skiers is an acquaintance who skied for the university where I work, and was about the best male university skier in Ontario for a season or two!) I hope others will help complete this incomplete list, and offer corrections to anything which sounds incorrect. Best, Peter |
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I think we skipped Marathon Skate here, but it's still sometimes
used---out of the tracks, too. I personally enjoy fooling with the timing of the poling/kicking in V1 and found it vital to my survival in marathons. I called my favorite marathon move the "hang skate" or "delayed skate"---I'd do the V1 poling, pausse a moment then kick. Maybe this is Mogren. Man, it was useful, restful, stable. Enjoy sorting this all out! Google can help... : ) --JP |
#7
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You guys rock, thanks!! Great info to go with my breakfast!
I'll have to re-read this a couple times and put into practice. Cheers, J |
#8
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Jan Gerrit Klok wrote: You guys rock, thanks!! Great info to go with my breakfast! I'll have to re-read this a couple times and put into practice. Cheers, J Hey Jan - don't you have anyone who can show you - or maybe look at a video or diagrams in a book. I understand what these folks have written because I know all these techniques from on-snow skiing - but really I didn't do them well until someone took the time to coach me a little. I don't think you can do this stuff properly by reading about it without any visuals at all. Good luck though and have fun. |
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On 18 Mar 2006 18:26:21 -0800, "Peter H."
wrote: Obviously, there is a continuum of possible 'techniques' which one could imagine, starting with offset and ending with 2-skate. So you will 'hear' some arcane discussions about this sort of thing (e.g. Mogren's skating style some years back) if you stay on this NG for long enough. We seem to have had very little of that recently. Perhaps skating technique is finally stabilizing. I think part of the reason for this is that those intermediate versions have been supplanted completely by V2/1-skate for good recreational skiers and for racers. For me, about the only time to do some sort of "high-speed" V1/offset is when on really tricky icy snow where I want to V2 but can't handle the balance. JFT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com **************************** |
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Hey Jan - don't you have anyone who can show you - or maybe look at a
video or diagrams in a book. I can, if I try really hard, visualize how something is done if I look closely, for instance biathlon on TV. It all does translate perfectly to my Crosskates so far, though I do have to lock out the heels on those suckers, too heavy. When I did 4-cross training/racing (like downhill BMX on 26" wheels), new to-me tricks I managed to nail eventually by looking closely till I knew exactly how it was done. Then all to it was committing. First try often was the best. When I feel rich again I'll probably build/buy proper rollerski's of some sort, the mayor race-oriented rollerski club in my country is actually located 17km from my home. I'm not too much into club life or fixed training hours, but once I'm sortof sure I won't look like a total goofhead, I might join a club. Makes traveling to the snow much easier, fun, and less pricey, probably. In time I'll also get a DVD player and something like those DVD's that were spammed on here last night. Been busy downloading XC footage, but my PC doesn't seem to appreciate 170Mb .avi's too well. Can you name 2 Dutch ski skaters, biathon or XC, active or retired? I hardly can, that's how small the sport is here. In a way, that does attract to me, in cycling there's just such crazy competition (more bikes than people here). I'd love to hear if anyone has ever (seen) Jenex V2 Aero 150's used with 125mm solid wheels, and how those perform compared to the race stuff then. Or how the 150's (or snow ski's) compare in speed to the Crosskates. It will be at least 8 months until I can test my snow speed :-( Happy trails, "J" "Camilo" schreef in bericht oups.com... Jan Gerrit Klok wrote: You guys rock, thanks!! Great info to go with my breakfast! I'll have to re-read this a couple times and put into practice. Cheers, J Hey Jan - don't you have anyone who can show you - or maybe look at a video or diagrams in a book. I understand what these folks have written because I know all these techniques from on-snow skiing - but really I didn't do them well until someone took the time to coach me a little. I don't think you can do this stuff properly by reading about it without any visuals at all. Good luck though and have fun. |
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