Making progress, a ways to go!

"Camilo" wrote:
Absolutely. I think that practicing proper kick double pole is one of
the best exercises to improve both classic and V2 skating. The balance
and pole timing on V2 is the same as kick double pole. I recommend a
supervised/coached lesson because it's critical to do it right.

You think so? Both use single leg balance, but with different body
attitudes. K-dp uses forward lean and fall, where V2 is more upright
and uses side to side push off, just like the dryland drill.

Gene

Gene Goldenfeld wrote:
"Camilo" wrote:
Absolutely. I think that practicing proper kick double pole is one of
the best exercises to improve both classic and V2 skating. The balance
and pole timing on V2 is the same as kick double pole. I recommend a
supervised/coached lesson because it's critical to do it right.

You think so? Both use single leg balance, but with different body
attitudes. K-dp uses forward lean and fall, where V2 is more upright
and uses side to side push off, just like the dryland drill.

Gene

What has really helped me is the committment to one ski - balancing on
it and getting over it and the poling while gliding on that one ski.
That's what I meant by the balance and timing being the same. I
probably should have said similar? I don't disagree the points you
made on body attitude and direction of leg effort. Its true that the
committment is way forward, almost falling, however when trying to get
to that point, it helped me get tuned into getting out over the ski
(committed to it with the hips forward) and I also think that helps me
with V2. Maybe it's not totally generalizable (?), but I really think
a proper kick DP can help not only that and diagonal stride, but also
V2.

On 9 Mar 2006 22:59:27 -0800, "Camilo" wrote:


Gene Goldenfeld wrote:
"Camilo" wrote:
Absolutely. I think that practicing proper kick double pole is one of
the best exercises to improve both classic and V2 skating. The balance
and pole timing on V2 is the same as kick double pole. I recommend a
supervised/coached lesson because it's critical to do it right.

You think so? Both use single leg balance, but with different body
attitudes. K-dp uses forward lean and fall, where V2 is more upright
and uses side to side push off, just like the dryland drill.

Gene

What has really helped me is the committment to one ski - balancing on
it and getting over it and the poling while gliding on that one ski.
That's what I meant by the balance and timing being the same. I
probably should have said similar? I don't disagree the points you
made on body attitude and direction of leg effort. Its true that the
committment is way forward, almost falling, however when trying to get
to that point, it helped me get tuned into getting out over the ski
(committed to it with the hips forward) and I also think that helps me
with V2. Maybe it's not totally generalizable (?), but I really think
a proper kick DP can help not only that and diagonal stride, but also
V2.
I get where Camilo is coming from in terms of timing. I started
skating a long time ago, but only began learning classic skiing, with
a lesson, a few years ago. And there seemed a natural affinity
between skating (esp V2) and kick double pole in the timing. Whereas
diagonal striding with poling was pretty different.

JFT


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John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
On 9 Mar 2006 22:59:27 -0800, "Camilo" wrote:


Gene Goldenfeld wrote:
"Camilo" wrote:
Absolutely. I think that practicing proper kick double pole is one of
the best exercises to improve both classic and V2 skating. The balance
and pole timing on V2 is the same as kick double pole. I recommend a
supervised/coached lesson because it's critical to do it right.

You think so? Both use single leg balance, but with different body
attitudes. K-dp uses forward lean and fall, where V2 is more upright
and uses side to side push off, just like the dryland drill.

Gene

What has really helped me is the committment to one ski - balancing on
it and getting over it and the poling while gliding on that one ski.
That's what I meant by the balance and timing being the same. I
probably should have said similar? I don't disagree the points you
made on body attitude and direction of leg effort. Its true that the
committment is way forward, almost falling, however when trying to get
to that point, it helped me get tuned into getting out over the ski
(committed to it with the hips forward) and I also think that helps me
with V2. Maybe it's not totally generalizable (?), but I really think
a proper kick DP can help not only that and diagonal stride, but also
V2.
I get where Camilo is coming from in terms of timing. I started
skating a long time ago, but only began learning classic skiing, with
a lesson, a few years ago. And there seemed a natural affinity
between skating (esp V2) and kick double pole in the timing. Whereas
diagonal striding with poling was pretty different.

JFT


I have finally figured out what V1 and V2 is. I hardly ever do V2. Only
as a very conscious decision. V1 on the flats and V1 "offset" on
climbs. I do switch sides occasionaly though on normal V1. With offset
it's always the same side. V1 is my favorite. Now that I am doing more
classic, I have found that DP-kick is my favorite. Perhaps it is this
affinity you have noticed that also makes DP-kick my favorite since I
am so used to V1.

As for timing, the whole issue seems to be just not losing momentum so
you don't have to waste energy accelerating with each stride, right?

In a diagonal stride, I found that the racing style pole straps help a
lot in getting good open-handed arm extension which helps me prolong my
glide. In general diagonal seems so different from the other forms that
my body never really gets confused doing it.

Joseph

On 10 Mar 2006 04:55:55 -0800, wrote:


I have finally figured out what V1 and V2 is. I hardly ever do V2. Only
as a very conscious decision. V1 on the flats and V1 "offset" on
climbs. I do switch sides occasionaly though on normal V1. With offset
it's always the same side. V1 is my favorite. Now that I am doing more
classic, I have found that DP-kick is my favorite. Perhaps it is this
affinity you have noticed that also makes DP-kick my favorite since I
am so used to V1.

Your terms for skating aren't quite right -- in places that use the
term V1 (the US) it's the same thing as offset (Canada). If you're
doing something like VI but it's not "offset" then you're doing what
is called V2-alternate in the US (or 2-skate in Canada), not V1.

You're in Scandanavia, right? I think VI or offset is called
something like "paddle dance" or "offest dance". V2 is called the
double dance, and V2 alternate is the single dance.


As for timing, the whole issue seems to be just not losing momentum so
you don't have to waste energy accelerating with each stride, right?

I know you have only found people who teach kids to ski, but really
think you need to look around more for a local lesson on this stuff.

JT




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On 10 Mar 2006 04:55:55 -0800, wrote:

As for timing, the whole issue seems to be just not losing momentum so
you don't have to waste energy accelerating with each stride, right?

Sort of. But the thing is, at different speed and conditions the
issue of not losing momentum can be more or less important, and you
have to trade that off with the value of using falling body weight and
weight shift to propel you.

So in higher speed techniques, like KDP and V2 and V2-alternate, there
are very distinct power and glide phases (which is no problem with the
high momentum you have), while in techniques for lower speeds the time
between power and glide is less, so you don't slow down as much.

Get some lessons.

JFT

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John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
On 10 Mar 2006 04:55:55 -0800, wrote:


I have finally figured out what V1 and V2 is. I hardly ever do V2. Only
as a very conscious decision. V1 on the flats and V1 "offset" on
climbs. I do switch sides occasionaly though on normal V1. With offset
it's always the same side. V1 is my favorite. Now that I am doing more
classic, I have found that DP-kick is my favorite. Perhaps it is this
affinity you have noticed that also makes DP-kick my favorite since I
am so used to V1.

Your terms for skating aren't quite right -- in places that use the
term V1 (the US) it's the same thing as offset (Canada). If you're
doing something like VI but it's not "offset" then you're doing what
is called V2-alternate in the US (or 2-skate in Canada), not V1.

You're in Scandanavia, right? I think VI or offset is called
something like "paddle dance" or "offest dance". V2 is called the
double dance, and V2 alternate is the single dance.

Offset dance makes sense. That's the uphill waddle. V1 is when you do
one double-pole for each time you push with both legs. In other words,
the DP lasts as long as it takes to push first with one leg, then the
other. While V2 is one DP for each leg push, in other words DP'ing
twice as often as with V1. Is that correct? I gotta get on the same
page! This is all complicated by the fact that I am indeed in Norway,
and I have no idea what these things are called in Norwegain!


As for timing, the whole issue seems to be just not losing momentum so
you don't have to waste energy accelerating with each stride, right?

I know you have only found people who teach kids to ski, but really
think you need to look around more for a local lesson on this stuff.


Probably a wise thing to do, before I teach myself all sorts of bad
habits. I am welcome to join the kids group, but it is rather
disruptive. The kids (9-12 years) are better than I am, but have no
stamina and are slower so the rhythm of the group is hard to maintain.
And it is a kids group, so I would end up sacrificing my learning so as
not to ruin it for the kids.

There must be a place I can take some lessons.

Joseph

Someone posts the right terminology translations from time to time. V1
is the hill climbing technique - "3-1" as instructors say, Paddle
Dance is Svensson's book. V2 is double dance and V2-alternate is single
dance.

Gene

wrote:


John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
On 10 Mar 2006 04:55:55 -0800, wrote:


I have finally figured out what V1 and V2 is. I hardly ever do V2.
Only as a very conscious decision. V1 on the flats and V1 "offset"
on climbs. I do switch sides occasionaly though on normal V1. With
offset it's always the same side. V1 is my favorite. Now that I am
doing more classic, I have found that DP-kick is my favorite.
Perhaps it is this affinity you have noticed that also makes
DP-kick my favorite since I am so used to V1.

Your terms for skating aren't quite right -- in places that use the
term V1 (the US) it's the same thing as offset (Canada). If you're
doing something like VI but it's not "offset" then you're doing what
is called V2-alternate in the US (or 2-skate in Canada), not V1.

You're in Scandanavia, right? I think VI or offset is called
something like "paddle dance" or "offest dance". V2 is called the
double dance, and V2 alternate is the single dance.

Offset dance makes sense. That's the uphill waddle. V1 is when you do
one double-pole for each time you push with both legs. In other words,
the DP lasts as long as it takes to push first with one leg, then the
other. While V2 is one DP for each leg push, in other words DP'ing
twice as often as with V1. Is that correct? I gotta get on the same
page! This is all complicated by the fact that I am indeed in Norway,
and I have no idea what these things are called in Norwegain!


As for timing, the whole issue seems to be just not losing
momentum so you don't have to waste energy accelerating with each
stride, right?

I know you have only found people who teach kids to ski, but really
think you need to look around more for a local lesson on this stuff.


Probably a wise thing to do, before I teach myself all sorts of bad
habits. I am welcome to join the kids group, but it is rather
disruptive. The kids (9-12 years) are better than I am, but have no
stamina and are slower so the rhythm of the group is hard to maintain.
And it is a kids group, so I would end up sacrificing my learning so
as not to ruin it for the kids.

There must be a place I can take some lessons.

Joseph

Everyone learns differently. I was a k-dp machine for years, going k
after k with or without poles on snow or rollerskis, but couldn't skate
worth a lick. In that context the timing of V2s came easier to me, tho
balancing on one ski for any length of time was and to some degree
still is another matter (severe pronation doesn't help). From a
learner's standpoint it is much more common to find that the experience
of having a leg in a track going forward, body right there and arms
just hanging waiting to pole, is much easier and real different than
trying to set this up (torso and arms) following a splayed gliding ski
that doesn't pause with every turnover.

Gene


"Camilo" wrote:


Gene Goldenfeld wrote:
"Camilo" wrote:
Absolutely. I think that practicing proper kick double pole is
one of the best exercises to improve both classic and V2 skating.
The balance and pole timing on V2 is the same as kick double
pole. I recommend a supervised/coached lesson because it's
critical to do it right.

You think so? Both use single leg balance, but with different body
attitudes. K-dp uses forward lean and fall, where V2 is more upright
and uses side to side push off, just like the dryland drill.

Gene

What has really helped me is the committment to one ski - balancing on
it and getting over it and the poling while gliding on that one ski.
That's what I meant by the balance and timing being the same. I
probably should have said similar? I don't disagree the points you
made on body attitude and direction of leg effort. Its true that the
committment is way forward, almost falling, however when trying to get
to that point, it helped me get tuned into getting out over the ski
(committed to it with the hips forward) and I also think that helps me
with V2. Maybe it's not totally generalizable (?), but I really think
a proper kick DP can help not only that and diagonal stride, but also
V2.

There must be a place I can take some lessons.

Joseph

Contact the Horten Ski Klub up the road (fjord) from you.. Just about any
skier in Norway could probably help you.

I found that even Norwegian folks that don't have any interest in racing had
amazing chops, although they may not be able to teach. (I especially am
amazed at their fence scaling abilities.)

But I'm quite certain that someone in Horten could help you. The club moved
along Anders and Jorgen Aukland pretty good I'd say.

Gary Jacobson
Rosendale, NY